Norrie May-Welby”s Recent Antics

I first encountered Norrie May-Welby some ten years ago, back when I was still struggling with alcoholism and was coming to grips with the utter devastation doing sex work had brought to my life and to the lives of friends of mine who were or had been sex workers.

I was on a list called “Trans-feminist” run by another winner, Emi Koyama.

I was amazed to find myself being trashed by these people for speaking the truth about my personal experiences with sex work, about how it had gone hand in hand with substance abuse and led to the deaths of most my friends who had been sex workers in the early 1970s.

I was told I was being oppressive and anti-feminist to want to talk about the negative impact doing sex work had on the lives of people doing it.

Considering I was a feminist and part of the actual second wave before Koyama was born I found this to be rather bizarre.

My take on Norrie May-Welby fell more into the category of my take on someone who caused transsexuals all sorts of problems back in the 1970s, a freak who called himself “Angela Douglas”.  Angela was all over the place claiming to run an organization and getting herself in all the underground papers.

When Jan and I first encountered this person we were running the NTCU.  We were supported by the Reed Erickson Foundation and had connections in the SF Public Health facility, The Center for Special Problems on Van Ness Ave. We were getting publicity from Lee Brewster in the form of an announcement in Queen Magazine.  She actually sent us a letter warning us about this person.

Well Angela got her surgery, then the wheels came off and the craziness came out.  Eventually Douglas went back to being a guy after leaving a trail of damage in his wake.

At a time when a number of us were quietly involved in the lesbian feminist movement he wrote a letter to one of the feminist newspapers proclaiming that transsexuals were vastly superior to natal females.

Now at a time when post-op transsexuals are facing a whole ton of bullshit from the right wing Christo-fascists, including finding ourselves being changed back into our birth sex by right wing legal actions, comes Norrie May-Welby, who wants to be considered a neuter.

Over on 365 Gay, lesbian columnist Emma Ruby-Sachs asks, “What do you think? Should neutral replace trans? Are they similar or the same? Do we need to do away with the gender discussion before we can start playing with the norms that exist?”


All I can say regarding Emma Ruby-Sachs suggestion is that she go fuck herself.

But regarding Norrie May-Welby…  “Ze” or what ever the fuck Norrie is,  should never be taken seriously regarding anything as this person is a narcissistic sociopath.

This person is far more harmful to transsexuals than a whole bus full of transgender activists.

Back when Jan and I meet Douglas I said to Jan, “My what a freak.”

Jan said, “Look at us.  Who are we to judge?’

I thought about it a bit and said, “Who better to judge than us, we are hippies and have seen the strangest of the strange.  We are transsexuals and have seen the strangest of the strange walk through the doors of this office.  We  aren’t judgemental and don’t view the merely different as bizarre, someone has to be truly strange for us to think they are bizarre.”

So it is with Norrie May-Welby…  Maybe when those of us who society considers strange think you are bizarre… Maybe just maybe it is time for you to do a gut check and consider some therapy.

18 Responses to “Norrie May-Welby”s Recent Antics”

  1. tinagrrl Says:

    Ah yes, I do remember “Trans-Feminist”. I mostly remember how you (Suzan) were attacked when you said some guy grabbed your breast while you were waiting at a bus stop — and you kicked him, knocking him back.

    As you told it, you had bags of groceries in each hand and this short Mexican guy grabbed you. With both hands full, you kicked him — in self defense.

    The wonderful folks at “Trans-Feminist” said your actions were “racist”. There was nothing said about defending yourself — it was all about big, bad, Suzan being “racist”.

    I remember telling you it was time to leave a group where anything you did or said was going to be twisted, re-written, and turned into something it wasn’t.

    Some of the attacks on you (and me) by some of the Classic Transsexual, HBS folks are almost exactly the same. No matter what is said — either one word is picked out as “proof” of something or other, or you (and I) are accused of being “liars” — even though no one seems to be able to point out a “lie”.

    All very strange stuff. All very similar stuff. All about remaining, in some strange way, “special”.

    It’s also about, in some way, negating the past. It’s all about some “brave new world” of transsexual — forget about the “old folks” — what can they know? After all, it’s 2010 (or 2020, 2030, 2040, etc.).

    We are all rather strong willed. Many have been told “you’re worthless” for years. Now, we’ve gone ahead, done things most folks don’t even WANT to dream of — and, we are right — all you old folks are WRONG, etc., etc., etc., etc.

    The pattern repeats

  2. emigrl Says:

    Hi – this is Emi. I don’t remember details of exchanges on transfeminist list since it’s almost ten years ago, but it’s not true that I used to run transfeminist list. I subscribed to that list for a couple of years, but I was never the founder, owner, moderator, or administrator of that list. You must be confusing me with someone else, or possibly with some other list.

    • Suzan Says:

      Fair enough… I stand corrected as to the the list ownership of Transfeminist. Nonetheless that was where I also had negative exchanges with Emi who went on to work with the transbashing and now discredited ISNA. Home of Tree and Laurent.

  3. Ishtar Says:

    Hello Emigrl, I remember those exchanges very well I saw them myself, the “Emigrrl” in question used to attack Suzy at pretty much every opportunity.

  4. Norrie Says:

    “narcissistic sociopath” Yes, it’s true, and necessary for the person who happens to currently be the face of the much larger movement to free humanity from unfair discrimination including that caused by the manufacture gender binary.

    Harbouring grudges from ten years ago, and advising ME to get therapy? Priceless.

    For propogaging my message, critical of it though you may be, thank you.

    • Suzan Says:

      Ahh Norrie, crazy as the day we first met.

      Yeah therapy might be a good move for you. Grudges? I had forgotten about you until your latest escapade of insanity.

      Do you just spend your time thinking about things that can make transsexuals look bad or what?

      Why don’t you get a job or a hobby or take up shooting smack or something…

  5. emigrl Says:

    I did have some disagreements with Suzan, yes, and there were some heated discussion at times. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that I “used to attack Suzy at pretty much every opportunity”–is it wrong to have heated discussion on a discussion email list about feminism?

    To be more precise: the first time Suzy and I had an “exchange” on the list was on March 23, 2001, in which Suzy responded to another post of mine. There were several back-and-forth on that day, which were heated but respectful on both sides. Interestingly, norrie mAy-welby came on your defense, and I began arguing with hir.

    Next, on March 25 I replied to your post, but not really to challenge or dispute what you said; it’s more like your comment reminded me of something else, so I quoted you and wrote a paragraph after that.

    I also responded to Suzy’s comment on March 31, which was sorta harsh, but I don’t think I’ve said anything wrong. Then on April 17 and on April 20, we exchanged our views about Christina Hoff Sommers and Daphne Patai, both of whom are recognized as the anti-feminist feminists.

    As far as I can tell, that’s all. So all together I responded to Suzy in four separate threads in a list Suzy and I both contributed a lot of posts. I don’t think that qualifies as attacking Suzy at “pretty ouch every opportunity.”

    As for my work with ISNA: I worked for ISNA only from 2001 to 2002. Whatever disagreement you may have with ISNA or its leaders, I’m not responsible for anything ISNA has done after that. (And even stuff they did between 2001 and 2002–I was just an intern and had little influence on its direction anyway.)

  6. Andrea B. Says:

    emigrl, I remember you very clearly. You were a member on transfeminist.

    This is my words about that issue and my words alone.

    I was a lurker on that list as well as several others which you were on and watched you, Mac Nab, Triea, Chase and others pushing your ideas on everyone and attacking anyone who did not agree 100% of what you said. You were like a fundementalists in how you bahaved on that list. The same applies to your compartriots. You were incapable of compromise or discussion.

    You were on crusade against Suzy and others on that list. Then again you seemed to be a on a crusade against everyone and anyone on that list, who was not part of your cabal, approved of or in particular controlled by your cabal.

    Anything that was not stated by you, Triea and Mac Nab was treated as though heresy. Anyone agreeing only 99.99% with you, was attacked as heretic. YOu need for absolute belief in everything you say, is interesting from a pathological point of view.

    The fact you are now denying your behaviour back then is fascinating. I assume you have realised how much of an asshole you were back then and have realised it was a mistake.

    I watched the rampage at the time from your and your friends on various lists, attacking anyone who would not follow the party line or anything who dared to even ask a civil question.

    Before you state I should seperate out you, Chase and Mc Nab and the rest of that little cabal regarding everything that happened back then. No way. You all acted as a unit across a wide spectrum of internet lists and behaved as a unit in imposing your political ideology.

    One piece of credit I will give you is this. You achieved what you set out to do. You worked methodically, viciously and achieved what you intended to do from the start. That label intersex people as a problem to be dealt with, instead of be assisted by society from birth because your imposed DSD hatred. Your cabal friends brought in advisors like Michael Bailey and Anne Lawrence. Who better to assault an innocent group, who have never one anything more to you than exist.

    You were co-ordinating with your little cabal, across various lists against TS people who just wanted rights, equality, liberty and justice, to be nothing special, to just live life in peace. Against those people you went in on a full scale attack, along with your friends, splitting of inconvenient activists, dividing, conquering and creating bad blood between people that lasted for years. Your method of befriending, setting up and then attacking people was particualrly well thought out and vicious as hell in execution.

    You were part of the group who encouraged, the we must be special and not like those other transsexuals grouping, leading to a bunch of idiots claiming to have intersex which they don’t even have basic information of, let alone understand.

    The only person I can figure out to have had a genuine intersex condition in ISNA was Sherri Groveman, who had nothing to do with DSD. The rest of you were using people like her’s legitamacy to push forward your twisted, sick, DSD social cleansing, agenda.

    I took note a long time ago of the people who pushed through the DSD hatred and those who helped establish it. I see that piece of hatred of intersex people for what it is. Blind hatred of a group in society.

    The fact that a large proportion of you were transsexual at the time and claiming to have various conditions you did not have, means that whenever DSD is eventually dismantled, most likely in a court of law, transsexual people will be blamed, instead of your little group of self hating transsexuals in denial, who can not accept you are transsexual and just live.

    Your self hatred like Triea or whatever her name is today, has led you to attack transsexual people for no reason, than you don’t like what you see in the mirror.

    Your radical feminism which you espouse, is not feminism. It is blind hatred.

    It is time you woke up, seen yourself for who you are, just plain you. Then accept you are not special, that you are just a plain person like the rest of us, no more equal or less equal.

  7. tinagrrl Says:

    Emi, I was on the Trans-Feminist list. As I said earlier, you, or your friends attacked EVERYTHING Suzan said.

    For G*D’s sake, calling a WOMAN who defended herself against sexual assault a “racist” simply because she mentioned the offending party was Mexican, and this on a list that has the word FEMINIST in its title, is INSANE.

    There wasn’t even a discussion about it — no one even bothered to say, “perhaps it’s not necessary to describe him as Mexican, or Latino” — Suzan was attacked for DEFENDING herself.

    What was a “Trans-Feminist” supposed to do, apologize for not being younger, or having bigger breasts?

    That’s just one of the many incidents that I can not forget. There were many others, but this was so obviously manufactured, it made clear that ANYTHING Suzan said would be (and was) attacked.

    What are you attempting to defend here? Are you claiming “it was just a mistake”, or were you attempting to discredit someone who had been around a while, and wasn’t falling for your crap?

    If that’s the case, perhaps an apology might just be in order

  8. emigrl Says:

    (Suzy – Please remove the previous comment. The quotes didn’t come out right, so I’m re-posting it.)

    Andrea B.,

    > Before you state I should seperate out you, Chase and Mc Nab and the rest of that little cabal regarding everything that happened back then. No way. You all acted as a unit across a wide spectrum of internet lists and behaved as a unit in imposing your political ideology.

    Well, you really should separate me from these two people: I don’t even know who “Mc Nab” is! How can you claim that I am part of a unit with someone I don’t even know or recognize?

    As for “Chase,” which I assume is Cheryl Chase from ISNA, and “Triea,” which I assume is Kiira Triea form CISAE: Cheryl was my boss for a year, but I had no personal relationship beyond that before or after working with ISNA. I also contacted Kiira in 2001 as part of my work at ISNA, and again in 2004 because I was trying to research about early intersex movement, but I don’t remember seeing her on any list.

    I may have been rude to someone on some email list in the past, but I don’t recall acting “as a unit”–especially not with the people you suggest. I don’t even think I have similar ideologies or philosophy that Cheryl or Kiira do (and I really have no idea about “Mc Nab”).

    > That label intersex people as a problem to be dealt with, instead of be assisted by society from birth because your imposed DSD hatred.

    I am not a supporter of the label “DSD.” I was not part of the group that came up with the term, and didn’t know anything about it until several months after it had been adopted by the medical community. I am no more responsible for the term “DSD” than you are.

    > Your cabal friends brought in advisors like Michael Bailey and Anne Lawrence.

    Bailey and Lawrence are not my friends, and I’ve publicly criticized both of them. I don’t regard them as advisors, and never invited them to be part of anything I’m involved in. In fact, if someone else suggested that I invite them, I’d oppose that.

    > You were co-ordinating with your little cabal, across various lists against TS people

    I think you are imagining that I am somehow connected to this “cabal,” but I don’t know any such thing and I am not part of it. I’ve always advocated for the rights of trans people, and I really have no idea what you are talking about.

    > The rest of you were using people like her’s legitamacy to push forward your twisted, sick, DSD social cleansing, agenda.

    Again, I left ISNA back in 2002, long before the term “DSD” came up. I am not part of the group you are referring to.

    > Your radical feminism which you espouse, is not feminism.

    I am a vocal critic of radical feminism, and have been for at least a decade.

    Please, Andrea B., I feel that you are unfairly attacking me. I can take criticisms toward something I actually did or said, but please stop associating me with these “cabals” that I have nothing to do with or with some “sick” ideology that I don’t share.

    > For G*D’s sake, calling a WOMAN who defended herself against sexual assault a “racist” simply because she mentioned the offending party was Mexican, and this on a list that has the word FEMINIST in its title, is INSANE. There wasn’t even a discussion about it — no one even bothered to say, “perhaps it’s not necessary to describe him as Mexican, or Latino” — Suzan was attacked for DEFENDING herself.

    If you are still on the (inactive) transfeminist list at Yahoo Groups, take a look at message #3244 for what I actually said:

    > i’m sorry that this happened, but what does the fact that he was
    > Latino have anything to do with it? would you have specified the
    > race if he was white? why did you choose not to include any
    > specific physical characteristics except that he is Latino?

    You might say that perhaps I could have been more supportive, but your recollection of the exchange appears to be wildly untrue. I did not call Suzy “racist,” and in fact I was simply having a “discussion” about her identifying the attacker as Latino, just like you say I should have done instead of calling her racist.

    (By the way, in my previous comment I said there were only four exchanges between me and Suzy, but I was wrong. I only counted the ones that were saved on my computer, but I realized that all emails are still saved on Yahoo Groups for everyone to see. BTW I also searched for “Mc Nab” but didn’t find any reference so I still don’t know who he or she is.)

    Again, I welcome criticisms for things I’ve actually done or said. But please stop accusing me of something I didn’t do, or things other people did that I had nothing to do with.

  9. Andrea B. Says:

    It was not only on yahoo groups.

    It was on listserve as well, which you were on. A lot has been deleted from that so as to try to rewrite history. Some however kept complete back ups:)

    Also referencing a group which people are not on and would be instantly attacked on, is a bit of a no no.

    I will never fall for your crap.

    Have fun with your revisionism. Complete it. Let everyone read it.

    Then sit back and watch archives appear online.

  10. Andrea B. Says:

    PS: I forgot.

    Emi give Michael Bailey a personal message from me. Tell him I said to tell him, he is a tranny chasing asshole.

  11. Ishtar Says:

    I will be honest Emi, I saw the WBT’s being attacked pretty much all the time, on numerous lists, by Denise Tree (Kiira Trea, Dr. Airt) Stephanie Velesquez, Deni (glove puppet) and yourself. OK on the lists I was on you were not the main attacker but you were a part of it. Why? All that seems to have happened is that now intersex people are seen as hostile to transsexual people (I am not) or the belief is that intersex people see themselves as intrinsically superior to transsexual people (I don’t I am not any better than anyone else)

    What purpose did this serve? Was it simply a sort of divide and conquer tactic? and is what we are seeing today the same thing to keep everyone angry and at each other’s throats while the sexnet nastiness gets into the DSM-V?

    I am with Suzy on this because I saw what went on and felt very disturbed by it all.

  12. emigrl Says:

    Andrea, I’m not claiming that I’m perfect or I’ve never said anything that I regret later. If you have specific criticisms about something I wrote, I’d like to hear about it–and if it turns out that I was wrong, I will apologize. But please stop making accusations that are purely speculative, such as I’m part of some conspiracy to destroy transsexual people.

    As for the Yahoo Groups being an incomplete archive: perhaps some messages may have been deleted, but from what I see the archive appears almost complete. Further, only the moderators of the list could remove previous posts, and I’m not a moderator so I can’t delete anything even if I wanted to (which I don’t–I forgot that the archive was available online until now).

    Also, even if I could delete some posts (which I can’t), I would not be able to plant a post in the archive to make it look like I said something different in the past. So the post I linked to serves as an evidence for what I actually wrote, as opposed to what someone else thinks that I did. It’s bizarre to suggest that I somehow manipulated the archive to cover my tracks when that’s technically impossible.

    If you wish to send J. Michael Bailey a message, I’m sure you can find his email address or phone number on his university’s website. I’ve never communicated with him and I don’t have his contact information handy.

    Please stop suggesting that I am somehow associated with some “cabal” with people I don’t agree with or those I don’t even know about. It’s unfair and dishonest.

  13. tinagrrl Says:

    Emi, thanks for posting that excerpt — at the same time, what I remember very clearly, and what truly affected me were the uncalled for attacks. As I said, that was but one. You were not the only person attacking — it seemed to be co-ordinated. – with a central theme — get that Suzy person.

    I was on the fringes, very fragile at the time, and really marveled at how purely MEAN it all was.

    What I recall about that particular event most clearly was that she was attacked for the act of self defense. This was after attacks on other issues, some of which seemed plausible. After the one mentioned, I realized NOTHING she said was accepted at face value. EVERYTHING was attacked. There are people who would not survive that level of abuse — even if it is “only” on line.

    I’m not currently a member of the group. Left not long after I realized it had nothing of value to offer. It was just a mouthpiece for a few potentially dangerous (in my opinion) individuals.

  14. Norrie Says:

    Looks like the entire mainstream world media disagree with your assessment, Susan. Suck on this ; )
    TIMES Quote of the Day: “The concepts of man or woman don’t fit me.”
    * who became the first person in the world to be classified as genderless after officials in New South Wales, Australia, altered May-Welby’s birth certificate to specify the neutral gender

    Read more:,26174,1973350,00.html#ixzz0jfMMwpzS

    Read more:,26174,1973350,00.html#ixzz0jfHNumSv

    • Suzan Says:

      Why gee the right wing rag Time Magazine agrees with you, imagine that.

      You’re just so special and precious. You are a nut job right up there with Angela Douglas in the amount of harm you do to people with transsexualism and transgenderism.

      Go piss off.

      How does it feel to be as harmful to transsexual and transgender people as the Christo-fascists?

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