Strange Assumptions

Nerissa Belcher made a comment on “Pathologizing our partners” that bugged me on several levels but mostly for the assumptions she made.

First let me get a major sticking point out of the way “bio-gals and GGs” are politically unacceptable terms on this list. I use WBT for post-SRS sisters and WBF or women born female for natal women. Cradle women or natal women are aslo better terms that tend to keep the playing field level.

Over some 40 years or so I have seen us had being straight, lesbian, bisexual and asexual with a few into various kink.

One of the most dickwad heterosexist assumptions is that women who are lesbians are that way because they can not get a man. This assumse that all men are somehow more attractive than all women and that one would have to be some sort of loser to not have a relationship with a man.

Or that we opt for a relationship with a sister because we are such losers that we can’t get a “bio-gal”. That train of thought shows a serious lack of self worth. Over the years I have found that many of my sisters are some of the brightest most charming women I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

Further the idea we are losers because we associate with sister or that we live in the imaginary “transghetto” because of that is another false assumption since our involvement might only consist of a couple of phone calls every month or so, perhaps a once a year get together and an on line presence.

But then too the fact that there are some super cool, brilliant sister out ther with the same skewed sense of the absurd is reason enough for those sorts of friendships.

Indeed when these assumptions get put together they seem like some gender therapist’s prescription aimed at insuring a returning clientele that feels crappy about themselves, alone and isolated etc.

Integrating into post-SRS life has only one real rule and that is to say fuck off to anyone’s list of assumptions and rule that you are supposed to follow. Or the idea that you should feel bad for failing live up to some imaginary set of rules. Screw that idea. Do what is right for you and quit the judgmental bullshit regarding the lives of others. Perhaps they are doing what is right for them.

Over the last 40 years I’ve had sisters get weird on me when I was a radical feminist with a WBF lover. Does this mean you are going to go back?

I had a couple call a Sansei Japanese American man I was seeing a gook.

Call me a “nigger lover” when I had a relationship with a black man

And all sorts of weird names when I was in a relationship with a Cuban American transgender sister.

The real pisser is that a couple of these judgmental assholes never had a relationship that was anything more than a casual date with sex and I had passionate relationships that lasted for months and sometimes longer.

I have been in a committed relationship with Tina that started on-line and on the phone since the start of 2001 and we have physically been together since 2002.

11 Responses to “Strange Assumptions”

  1. tinagrrl Says:

    I’ve known”bio-gals” who were heavy, older, not shapely, who ALWAYS had a guy — usually better looking than they were (no, these women were not well to do). I’ve also known “bio-gals” (what a strange term) who were young, good looking, great figures, etc., etc., who could never keep a guy. One night stands, short relationships, were the best they could do.

    What does that all mean?

    As far as men go — I actually forced myself to date men. I had to find out if my antipathy toward men was just left over fear, or a defense developed after all the teasing I had as a child and young person.

    I discovered rather quickly I did not like men.

    Perhaps the fact men were the authors of almost all the pain I endured is a reason. Perhaps the fact I hate to defer to folks dumber than I am is another.

    The more exposure I had to men as “just another woman”, the very less I liked most of the pompous, self important, overly entitled, ass-holes.

    Some can br charming. Some can be interesting. Most are not.

    Men also tend to be homo-social. As a result, many women (read: wives) are more and more isolated as they age. In any case, many of the wives hang out together. In addition, sex tends to end with age.

    Tell me again: What are the advantages of heterosexual relationships?

  2. Diana Says:

    Tinagrrl: “Tell me again: What are the advantages of heterosexual relationships?”

    Weeell, I am not a great advocate for any kind of monogamous or permanent relationship, but attraction is something else. IMO one cannot debate, explain, or justify heterosexual (or homosexual) attraction to others that do not share the feeling. It is either there of it isn’t.

    As my favorite art rock band sings, “Only a fool believes that he is different from the birds in the sky…”

  3. Evangelina Says:

    For me it isn’t anything I have any control over; I’d tried relationships with women and it was a disaster. I never felt any desire to repeat the mistake. I’ve been in several relationships with various men and in that respect I am no different to any of my girlfriends; overall despite some setbacks and some not so good experiences, I am in a 12 year marriage with a man I love to pieces. Sure he has faults who doesn’t. I have faults too, I’m human we all have flaws. However at the end of the day I just don’t feel any sexual attraction to women. It doesn’t exist why fake it? I had far too many years of that nonsense.
    As a councellor I’ve had a great many people come through my doors in the past expressing all the feelings you all have. I am sure you have heard it all too Suzan. That attraction is either there or it isn’t and it is not a switch that can be thrown in one direction or the other except in a few cases. I’m well past making any judgements on anyone’s choice of life partner and it is certainly something that has precious little to do with WBT, in my opinion.
    If you have had bad experiences with hetero relationships and are comfortable with the current arrangements, great, have a wonderful life. However, I would not exchange my current life with all it’s drawbacks for anything. I am with a man I love more than life itself. I am in a profession that thrills me everyday. I have a full social life with people who interest me and give my life joy. I had almost none of this before correction. It literally gave me life.
    There are some things that lack any choice. I had no choice in being a woman born transsexual (or HBS) I had no choice in finding myself attracted to men. I had no say in having red hair, green eyes and fair skin, it just happened. Some things are not a matter of choice.

  4. Nerissa Belcher Says:

    My ideas could be tested and I’m fairly confident they’d be shown to be correct. For example, a healthy body mass index (BMI) is considered to be 18.5 to 24.9 (I’ll round this to 25.0). The middle of this range is 21.75. For a 5′ 10″ person this is approximately 151.5 pounds. Consider taking a large group of post-GRS MTF TSs and comparing those who have BMI less than 21.75 to those with BMI greater than 21.75. For scientific accuracy we’ll normalize the groups for income, age, etc. so that only the BMI is a factor.

    My prediction is a substantially higher proportion of the slim women would be with men. Side note and I’m really interested if anyone else has the same experience: part of this might not be the appearance of the women but in their sexual appetite. I am *much* more interested in men the slimmer I get.

    As for involvement in the trans community some of us might make the rare blog reply or go to the rare trans function and others live, eat and breath trans issues. Considering that for most natal women a typical level of involvement is “none” one could make an argument that any involvement in the trans community is excessive for someone who wishes to transition effectively into the world of natal women. But, I won’t make that argument. Trans folks are too much fun to give up on entirely in my opinion.

    But basic math demonstrates that we decrease our opportunity to find a man or natal woman as a partner the more time we spend away from men and natal women while hanging with trans people. For Suzan I’ll ask the question “how many days in the past thirty days did you have NO involvement with the trans community?”. Almost all natal women would say “thirty days.” Compare to your answer.

    • Suzan Says:

      Nerissa… Google is an amazing thing. And you are far more involved in the “trans-community” than I am.

      Your assumptions regarding those of us who are lesbian insulting, homophobic and wrong.

      I simply find men a waste of time. Most are boring and misogynistic. They tend to think of women as inferior and are for the most part a bunch of dogs who will sleep with anything that lets them stick their dick into a warm wet hole.

      Further my involvement with people associated with trans prefixed words is exclusively with women, as in with adult people with vaginas. So other than encounters with the occasional man in a dress on line I could safely say I have had no contact with anyone in the transgender community for the last 8 years or so.

      WBTs are women and I do not place them in some inferior place in comparison to WBFs the way you seem to want to.

  5. Suzan Says:

    BTW I’m in my 60s, an out lesbian, an anrcha-feminist and an open out spoke atheist in Texas and the straight men still hit on me and flirt with me..

  6. Nerissa Belcher Says:

    My off-line involvement with the trans community in the past year consists of going out with a pre-op HBS type identified MTF friend five times. On one of those occasions we partied with CDs to TSs.

    Incidentally I’m bisexual. The last two people I dated for more than a few months were bisexual women. Still, as a general rule I prefer making love with men. Who, by-the-way, I do not generally see as oppressing women. I think the traditional feminist “woe is me I’m oppressed by men” paradigm is mostly hokum. Almost all man hating feminist claims can be shown to be false or only very minimally supported when examined statistically.

    • Suzan Says:

      Nerissa said: “My off-line involvement with the trans community in the past year consists of going out with a pre-op HBS type identified MTF friend five times.”

      Well that is a lot more than Tina and I do. We did know a high level pre-op sister 4 years ago or so we let stay here.

      Other than that all my sister friends are long time post-SRS women. And lately there aren’t that many of them what with various cancers, heart disease etc.

      Most of my other friends are into guitar or photography or fomenting a socialist revolution.

  7. tinagrrl Says:

    “When examined statistically” — whose “statistics”?

    How about my 70 years of life experience? Does that count for anything?

    I’m 70 (as I mentioned already), am currently 5′ 10″, and weigh 144 lbs (a rather “femme” 144). Does that meet your “lesbians are fat” criteria?

    I also have NO involvement with the “Trans community”, other than online, and that’s just comments here, on the WBT list, and occasional jabs at the folks on “Trans-Theory” (as I say: There is no “trans-theory”, there are trans-theories, thus allowing most of us to talk AT each other, with little or no true ubderstanding.).

    As has been said by others, we have little control over who we are attracted to. To make sweeping statements about lesbians, based on “statistics” seems to be a bit more than basic homophobia — it goes into the Cameron, NARTH, Dobson, Exodus, area of homophobic thought.

    In addition, I transitioned to find peace and complete my process of self acceptance. After completing the initial process (SRS) I found my life long HATRED of those who abused me as a child and young person to diminish — almost disappear. That does not mean I will trust most men. Nor will I enjoy being talked down to (it gets worse when you’re old).

    I no longer even know any pre-ops, have no connection with any “support groups” (that ended after two visits to a group I occasionally went to — this after SRS — when I realized we no longer had anything in common), and no longer even know any TV’s. This is very different from my life as a pre-op, and before.

    Many folks seem to want to deny the fact of a life like mine — they have too much invested in the “post-ops can’t assimilate, integrate, into ‘normal’ life” crap. My life improved after transition if only because I am much happier with myself.

    Currently I live in a rather unremarkable suburban community, smack dab in that “mainstream” folks say we don’t make it to. Aside from falling in love with a sister, another WBT, my life is rather ordinary. We neither drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. We’re good neighbors, keep up our property, have no wild parties — and, aside from being rather left-wing, are really unremarkable.

    One of the things SRS, and transition, did for me was allow me to get much further along in my recovery, self awareness, process.

    Most of the statements folks make about the vast array of WBT / HBS / post-op folks are just crap. We are all different, and just a common medical history is not enough to form lasting relationships. At the same time, I think it necessary to maintain connections with others, however minimal, if only to keep abreast of issues that affect all of us, and provide support during really tough times.

    As far as our personal choices — hey, it’s your life. we all have to make choices that suit us, help us find peace, love and a reasonable life.

    It is only when others attempt to impose their “standards” on my life, attempt to defin me, limit me, that I become active in opposition.

    I am getting to the point where I see much of the TG, “umbrella community” crap as “careerism”, or an attempt to gain personal power (of one sort or another).

    Most of it has little to do with the common good. Little to do with enhancing anyone’s life — except that of “The Leader”.

    Well, I guess it’s one way to continue being “special”, or make a living.

  8. Evangelina Says:

    One thing that bugs me is the current tendency generally to assume that statistics “prove” something. Statistical outcomes can be controlled by selecting the statistical input and that can be politically motivated as well as prejudicially motivated. They can be useful guides if properly and honestly conducted. Most often however, statistical surveys are not honestly conducted. Lies, damned lies and statistics.

  9. Nerissa Belcher Says:

    Hi everyone,

    You might find the following of interest. The obesity proneness of lesbians, relative to heterosexual women, is not due to less activity or to more eating than heterosexual women. There are two ways of looking at this.

    First, that women on the heavy side are prone to “discover” they’re lesbian due to difficulties in finding decent male partners.

    Second, that “something” (I’ll call Factor F or FF for short) which makes a woman prone to obesity makes her prone to lesbianism too. What FF might be is an interesting question.

    My experience in transitioning supports both viewpoints. I’m an athletically muscular 5′ 7.5″ nearly 54 y/o pre-op (soon to be post-op) MTF TS. My weight in the past six years I’ve been on HRT has been 167 +/- 22 pounds (145 – 189). When on the high end men rarely hit on me. On the low end men hit on me regularly. I could easily see how several years of being heavy could make me “decide” I didn’t like men and preferred women. So argument one is supported.

    On the other hand I’ve noticed a very strong tendency to prefer men when I’m slim and to lean towards women, when I’m heavy. This having no apparent connection to my current sexual experience whether with men or women. Interestingly the transition in interest happens over a narrow weight range in the mid 150s. To that point when I’m dropping weight it is a white knuckle experience fraught with difficulty. Below that weight I find weight control fairly easy. So why am I not always slim? My up and down weight is due to stress. Every gain has been preceded by significant stress as in looking for work and settling into a new job. I don’t think the stress is directly causing weight gain as in motivating me to eat more or exercise less. Instead I believe it is kicking in FF which induces weight gain and lesbianism.

    Imagine if FF could be identified and treated successfully to enable women to remain slim as they age. My guess is the treatment might change the sexual orientation of lesbians and for women who’d never ID’d as lesbians enhance their libido towards men.

    Prev Med. 2009 Feb 11.
    Examining factors linked to overweight and obesity in women of different sexual orientations
    Boehmer U, Bowen DJ.
    Department of Social and Behavioral Sciences, Boston University School of Public Health, Boston, MA, USA.
    Objectives. Our goal was to examine possible mechanisms for the relationship of sexual minority status and obesity. The mechanisms we considered were energy intake, measured as consumption of fruits and vegetable, past diet attempts and energy expenditure measured as physical activity and number of days when poor physical or mental health interfered with usual activities. We hypothesized that women with a female partner have greater energy imbalance by expending less energy and have higher energy intake than women with a male partner thereby causing overweight and obesity. Methods. The study was a secondary data analysis of the California Women’s Health Survey (CWHS), an annual probability survey that produces a representative sample of the female California population. After pooling data from the years 2001-2005, we obtained a representative sample of 14,197 Californian women. Multiple regression analyses were used to test for mediation. Results. We found higher prevalence of overweight and obesity in sexual minority women. There was no support for mediation in that gender of sexual partner was not significantly related to measures of energy intake and expenditure. Conclusions. The findings from the present study further implicate sexual minority status in the risk for overweight and obesity, yet do not identify the chosen measures of energy intake and expenditure as mediators for this relationship.
    PMID: 19463478

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