The Annoying Whine

I knew it would come.  Indeed I was surprised it took so long to arrive…  I mean I started this particular blog almost three whole weeks ago.

I’m sure it is one every post-SRS woman has heard if she has any contact with those who parrot the transgender party line.

All one of us has to say is that women are adult people with vaginas and not adult people who dress or act a certain way.

Well the whine arrived yesterday and it wasn’t posted as a comment to a blog entry but to the About.  I pulled it not because of what it said but rather due to where it was posted.  If the author is reading this she can repost it to this thread

One version of the whine goes like this, “It doesn’t matter what my genitals are since no one sees them.”

Technically this is correct if one assumes that you want to be female simply for sex with another and not simply for yourself.

Tell me you are unaware while peeing, bathing or self pleasuring.

Ahh.

Genitals don’t count.

Actually genitals do count.  Most of us suffered with years of people attempting to socialize us into being masculine heterosexual adults based on our genitals.  Further once we have pussies we find all the weight of society’s expectations of females become our lot just as they are of those born female.

I’m sure this whine and others will follow and respond.

16 Responses to “The Annoying Whine”

  1. Evangelina Says:

    I started out liking you Suzan because of what I read in your book exract on TS SI. I felt an affinity with you because of the things you said there. Reading more and more of what you have written here and especially in “Not My Child” (I did come across that a while ago as well) I am beginning to positively LOVE you.
    I recall reading something that Christine Burns of PFC wrote on this subject a few years ago now where she talked about wether genitals matter or not since no one sees them. She claimed it did not matter that much. I was both incensed and amazed that anyone could claim they are transsexual and NOT be bothered by what was between their legs. It is the very foundation of what I felt and the very source of the conflict that used to exist between my sense of self and my physical. Bravo Suzan Bravo.

  2. joanne Says:

    I’m with Evangalina on this one! When will the TG’s get it through their thick heads that HBS folk are primarily conflicted about their anatomical sex not about changing gender roles.

    Let’s reduce it to something simple for them:

    ITS OUR BODIES, STUPID!

  3. Sarah Says:

    Its the body for non ops to. Just ony the secondary body characteristics wired in to the brain, but the part for the primary in the brain was virilized.

    A non op ist not the same as a Stu Rassmussen or a Whatever Prince.

    Thats where I’m in conflict with every person claiming to be true, classic, wbt, hbs or however you call it.

    Its no better than a woman speaking of a natural order and damnes lesbians because the part of the brain for their sexual orientation was virilized.

    (For some of the research on the subject, see: http://drdrantz-sciencesexuality.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-hit-me-with-your-slides-was.html )

    For me its that simple.

    I have no problem, with people post op just wanting to live life as woman and have no more connection with anything that is under the T. Thats why I have no problem enjoying reading this blog.

    But when for example you say, sex is just Vagina vs. Penis you become one of offenders for me, because you give every sexologist right when he sees transsexual woman as man who would be queen.
    You give Zucker every right to do what he has done here on a young transsexual child:
    “One of the things he did was roughly grab the penis and say “this is what you are” and then he made me touch him and said something like: “you should just practice being gay.,””

    Sarah
    PS: Im not the one with the comment in the first place

  4. joanne Says:

    Sarah wrote:
    >Its the body for non ops to. Just ony the secondary body characteristics wired in to the brain, but the part for the primary in the brain was virilized.<

    Nice try Sarah….incoherent, but that comes as no surprise. Problem is your authority is speculating, and has got to the point where she is assuming that ALL lesbian behavior is masculine and ALL gay male sexual behavior is feminine.

    That is observably incorrect.

    Now if I just deconstruct your statement above, you’re literally arguing that brain sex can be predetermined for a female with a penis.

    (Secondary sex characteristics female, primary sex organ male.) Now I’m not going to argue that the scenario is impossible. I doubt the word impossible is compatible with human biology.

    However, Primary Sex differentiation occurs during the first trimester. Sex differentiation in the brain occurs during the third trimester.

    (Swaab, Dick F. Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior. Best Practice & Research Clinical Endocrinology & metabolism, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 431–444, 2007. http://www.sciencedirect.com)

    The phasing certainly leaves the door open for the brain and the body to move in different directions. Its difficult to see how the brain could move in two different directions at the same time without ending up ‘hermaphroditic.’

    I would like to see some scientific evidence for this, rather than meditative speculation.

    I wish you well in your search.

  5. joanne Says:

    Suzan
    you will need to remove the bracket from this URL as shown above. It was not supposed to get tangled in th URL as it has. My apologies.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com

  6. Sarah Says:

    >assuming that ALL lesbian behavior is masculine and ALL gay male sexual behavior is feminine

    I think she just speaks of orientation, not how its done. Zoe has a link to some fMRT Studies on the subject of homosexuality in her Artikle BiGender and the brain.

    Your last link doesn’t work: …format of the URL was incorrect.

    Sarah
    Ah, thats an interesting theme you hidden in an earlear post:
    sexual preferences
    Pre HRT vs. later on
    always attracted to women 38.58%
    always attracted to men 8.63%
    first attracted to women, now men 17.26%
    first attracted to man now women 0
    always bi 14.21%
    atttracted to women, now bi 21.32%
    attracted to men, now bi 0

    With 198 women answering. ( http://wyrd.in/foren/showthread.php?s=91990306ee9ff7b4d910036f0e58a513&t=1871 )
    It was not a scientific study, just an online survey, but it holds when I look at the persons I know.

    – That shows two interessting things: Women with transsexual history (or later in their jurney) have a higher rate of homosexulity then the average.
    – By 17.26% some parts of the brain regarding that seem to be only activated by the right hormon on puperty like ammounts.

    I am in the “first attracted to women, now men” camp.

    Sarah

  7. catkisser Says:

    Sarah, did I understand you to say that a woman of transsexual history attracted to men is a homosexual?

    If so, that’s been my experience with people like you, total disrespect of us as just women after we correct our birth condition. And it’s the reason women like us are coming out and screaming “foul” to the transvestite community.

    I call you the transvestite community because you insist on needing your numbers and your big tent and male bodies with women’s clothing covering them is what you all have in common.

  8. Sarah Says:

    Hello Catkisser.

    How do you come to such a twisted conclusion? But I seen diskussions where you were involved where you even constructed a death thread on you on the same twisting of arguments (not mine). So its not reallly a surprise.

    And by the way. What on eart makes you assume that I am not transsexual?

  9. Suzan Says:

    Sarah sez: “But when for example you say, sex is just Vagina vs. Penis you become one of offenders for me, because you give every sexologist right when he sees transsexual woman as man who would be queen.”

    Sex is pretty much just vagina or penis. Your jump in logic is stunning example of transgender ideology in action.

    Over the years I have discovered that the full time transvestites aka transgenders tend to hate those of us who underwent Cybele’s knife and actually had sex change operations. Hence the second we dare say we have nothing in common with them they start channeling Bailey, Blanchard or Raymond.

    What makes us assume you are not transsexual? Your embrace of transgender as umbrella.

  10. Sarah Says:

    > What makes us assume you are not transsexual? Your embrace of transgender as umbrella.

    So a medical condition can be diagnosed by political standpoints?

    Well, actually I never did that (embrace of transgender as umbrella.). What I did say was that people, you claim to be transgender and therfore crossdressing man, have nearly exact the same medical condition. And thats no fun, cause they never can get to a socially accepted body this way.

    The penis vs. vagina definition is the whole evil behind corrective surgeries on intersex infants.
    So sorry, I while never share this standpoint. If that does invalidate my own transsexuality for you, I can not change this (we can not argue on this on a common base).

    By the way, Catkisser, didn’t you mention over at Zoes that you had a diagnosed intersex condition?

  11. Suzan Says:

    Sarah sez: “So a medical condition can be diagnosed by political standpoints?”

    Then proceeds to pour on the transgender red herring of infant intersex surgery. That is the Denise Tree/Kiira Tirea sort of argument. The ultimate conclusion of which is no sex reassignment for anyone and acceptance of phallic women etc.

    Call me a sort of essentialist if you will, I have nearly 40 years of experiencing the world as a person with a vagina vs less than 25 with a penis as a person with transsexualism and I existentially know that the experiencing of life is different for those people with vaginas.

    I actually spent 3 years as a pre-op with a boy friend and all the social acceptance within a hip straight community that any transgender person could possibly dream of. I lived in Berkeley during those years and I was a respected member of the militant left.

    I actually thought getting the operation wouldn’t make that much difference but it did and I found it separated me from those who simply lived as women without actually having vaginas between their legs.

    This is why most of us who are not caught up in the transgender political agenda leave the so called transcommunity eventually after SRS.

    Those of us who remain stay as part of the post-SRS community of women with a medical history of treatment for transsexualism.

  12. Evangelina Says:

    I have said more than enough about my own circumstances and in any event I don’t believe my personal life gives me any special right or insight. However sometimes I do get a unique view of how mainstream society treats openly transgender individuals from the inside. My assimilation into mainstream society is total. I can guarantee that not one single person save my GP is aware I was once transsexual. So when I was among a group of women chatting easily about a great many things female. The door opened and someone who was known to be transgender entered the room. The conversation topics instantly changed. This person is actually well known around the internet and claims to have total acceptance. Well, I can tell you she might think she does, but she most certainly does not.

    The women treated her well and did greet her warmly. A few minutes later she left the room and one of the women said “Now where were we?” The interactions began again where we had left off almost as if there had been no interruption. That was not the only example of this kind of thing that I have witnessed.

    Whenever the issue of vagina v penis is raised on discussion boards and support forums for some inexplicable reason the discussion immediately turns to sexuality. Homosexuality versus bi-sexuality versus heterosexuality is a total red herring in this discussion. Self awareness is the major factor that sets humans apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Which sex you self identify as is a major part of that. Which sex presses your buttons of sexual excitement is a quite separate issue. What has always pressed my buttons of sexual excitement or arousal has always been men what immediately turned the whole system off was having a penis. That is just one of the factors that defined me as transsexual and separated me from homosexuality and transgender. This said I can totally understand and accept that in some cases sexual partner preference can be for someone of the same sex.

    I reject totally any pseudo science that describes linear continuums and spectrums regards which sex you are. It’s all bunkum!

  13. fleur black Says:

    Curiouser and curiouser.
    When I was one full year into transition and started acollege course for more ‘ladylike work’ after a lifetime in industry I was in a class of mixed Pakistani male and females (don’t get all racist on me!). The females were quite happy to chat with me about female things, their lives etc. As soon as the ‘alpha male’ Pakistani walked in the room they turned away as though I was poison.
    Now I work (as a fully transitioned but still or delayed pre-op) in office with women and they really do see me as female and there is none of the dropping of female topics when I am in the room with them.
    I’ll talk about TS health/sex/love things and they discuss gyno probs and their love/sex things.

  14. sueann173 Says:

    You have to love it doncha?

    I have worked on a committee to design such a servery and found this one to be so heavenly loaded it made the Hite Report look unbiased.

    It was taken offline a couple of years ago bue we dod one of these in San Diego it was just as comprehensive as this one but was inclusive to classical transsexuals. (I successfully lobbied for that) Sadly the deployment of the servery was biased and wasn’t distributed to the local therapists for their help, which they would have happely accommodated us in asking their clients if they would take the survey. Shall we say there was considerable gay and tranny bias. It did produce some interesting results, the classical TS were three times more likely to be employed than the TG identified folk, based on the raw data.

    What can I say but; what a crock of crud.

    S

  15. fleur black Says:

    that survey is all in foreign.. LOL

    Can we just get this ‘homosexual’ business sorted out?

    I see the ‘homo post-op’ as being very unreal and transphobic label as in practice: suppose a post-op Mtf gets a regular guy partner and they get into a sexual relationship.
    Does the actual natur eof the romance/sex qualify as straighthetero or homsex? If the straighthetero limits his lovemaking to that he would do with GG then is it homosex and the Mtf an effem homo as BLZB claim?
    But if the post-op only has sex in the style and manner of a gay guy and the gay only wants sex of that sort then yep the postop is effem home and the gay is the closet homosexual.
    err. or is it me mixing things up?


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