1) Most transsexuals never have surgery.
Transsexuality is a neurological birth condition (the scientific proof is in unless you are a total Luddite) and a female (male) neurology will always eventually reject a male (female) anatomy. What that means is that the condition is actually defined by the absolute need to correct one’s body to the maximum degree possible. Tens of thousands of surgically corrected women live in the US. A couple of hundred vocal transgenders inhabit the cybersphere braying their nonsense. Do the math. Here’s a hint, anyone who makes such a statement almost certainly has a penis and is planning on keeping it. Whether or not you wish to consider someone like this female is up to you.
2) “Woman trapped in a man’s body” is an over simplified trope.
Nope, as it turns out, this is one of those occasions when a complex subject CAN be reduce to a literal, simple statement.
(You got that one right. We used that metaphor long before we had idiots with too many degrees tell us why we shouldn’t. It is ours and we should use it.)
Continue reading at:
07/28/2009 at 10:35 am
Hi Suzy
As for the prevalance, Femke Olyslager last year collected international statistics which show that the prevalence of transsexualism as measured by how many person who in their lifetime will have SRS is 1 in 3000 for MTF.The prevalence for FTM is less so far (1 in 5000), but increasing. This means that of the present US population some 100.000 persons will have SRS in their lifetime.
07/28/2009 at 12:52 pm
As far as I can tell, my experience of my gender is very different from that of a drag queen or recreational crossdresser. I find it a little frustrating that to many people it’s all the same. Still, I vehemently dislike categories, and if I don’t want other people putting labels on me and defining my existence, I feel equally strongly that I don’t want to do that to other people. A lot of the discussion here seems to be deeply concerned with policing boundaries and “othering” people.
I cracked six feet tall when I was thirteen years old, and added a few more inches before I stopped. Between that and other circumstances, transition was impossible, especially since I knew (or thought) I’d never “pass.” Well, many years later, I’ve transitioned. While I get a lot less flack from the general population than I thought I would, but I find there’s a sneering superciliousness from some people whose circumstances have been vastly different from mine.
Sure, I wish I were 5’6 and 115 lbs. I wish a lot of things were different when I was younger. And it’s a bit painful and insulting to be looked down upon as an inferior species by people who just had better luck than I did.
07/28/2009 at 8:39 pm
[quote]
As for the prevalance, Femke Olyslager last year collected international statistics
is 1 in 3000 for MTF.
This means that of the present US population some 100.000 persons will have SRS in their lifetime.
[\quote]
That would assume the international rate is about the same as US rate. How close that is to true depends on what parts of the world the statistics were collected in. For instance China has a lot of people , but I suspect their SRS rate per capita is a lot lower than ours, but i suspect some european countries may be higher rates than we do… and how may are done in Thailand for Thai’s?
- Karen
07/28/2009 at 10:29 pm
It’s not about “policing boundries”, nor is it about “othering” people. It IS about people putting labels on, and defining, others. That’s one of the main arguments against the “transgender umbrella” — people who attempt to define others, attempt to make “gender” the defining issue, and who feel it’s their right to say who is, or is not, a woman — all based on their reading of “gender”.
07/28/2009 at 10:34 pm
Karen
Lynn Conway’s figures for the SRS’s in the US correspond to those of Femke. Europe has not a higher rate. Of course totalaritarian regimes like that in China has lower rates, but that says nothing about the prevalence in China.
07/29/2009 at 8:45 am
Some people think the only difference between a transsexual man or woman and a transvestite is whether or not the transvestite chooses to have cosmetic surgery on their genitals.
07/29/2009 at 10:35 am
Some people also refuse to believe Barrack Obama was born in Hawaii in spite of his not only having a birth certificate but there being birth announcements in the newspaper when he was born. What can one say there are working people who vote Republican even though it is against their best interests. There are a bunch of ignorant morons out there.
07/29/2009 at 11:37 am
Kim, one of fundamental reasons for identifying the transsexual population is ensure proper medical care. As long as the “surgery as option” canard persist, it increases the difficulty of getting safe and sufficient regimens in place for hormones and surgery.
Sometimes, distinctions make a difference. People who obscure the differing medical needs of transgenders and transssexuals do so at the peril of flawed outcomes for transsexual patients.
07/29/2009 at 12:20 pm
I agree with you Sharon. I also have problems with these statistics based on surgery access. There are too many different reasons for accessing surgery. Autogynephilia exists, regardless of TG denial. So do the ‘Mangina’ crowd I referred to in an earlier post.
Psychotherapists of various stripes will encourage anyone who exhibits cross-gender behavior toward surgery,
mainly because they believe that Classical (HBS) transsexualism is gender role transgressive behavior.
Surgery is no longer a sound statistical indicator of classical-WBT-HBS transsexualism. That said the desire – the need for SRS is still a good indicator for the condition.
07/29/2009 at 1:08 pm
Yeah Autogynephilia exist. Without it there wouldn’t be Vogue, Elle, or any other fashion magazine. Female sexuality is more self directed than males fantasy of it being directed at them. Male sexuality is object directed female sexuality is more self directed.
It is a survival trait in a world where adultery equals death for women who lust for men other than their owner.
07/29/2009 at 5:21 pm
A narrow minded view of a complex issue?
Why do we have to believe that there is a gender binary? That is what this list tells us. Mentally male and mentally female. Everything else = fetishist. I do not believe this to be the case. (and I challenge you to show the evidence of such a binary as opposed to a scale with masculine on one end and feminine on the other)
Many of the studies show how the pre-natal environment effects the development of the brain. Yes it will tend to develop one way or the other, but consider what happens when large amounts of estrogenic compounds are introduced from the outside. Can we not see the possibility of the brain developing with characteristics typical of both masculine and feminine development? (somewhere in-between) And why should we think that all sex differentiated brain characteristics develop at the same time?
I am the physically male offspring of a mother that was prescribed DES during her pregnancy. That means that when my brain was first developing it was in an estrogen rich environment, but once I was born the body took over. On Benjamin’s scale, I am a 4 or a 5. I would estimate my brain to be 80% female.
Some of my earliest memories (pre school) involve wanting to dress like and be a girl. This was well before puberty and therefore before any sex drive kicked in so I dispute it involving any fetish. In the first grade, I played and socialized with the girls, until I was convinced that this was somehow “wrong” then I stayed and played by myself. In some ways I am very feminine, in others I am masculine. I have read accounts of transsexual people were these behaviors were much stronger than in my case.
But wait!!!! Remember my developmental exposure to estrogenic compounds was only pre-natal. After that my sexual organs produced the normal male hormones. So puberty was hard. I am 6ft tall with lots of hair in all the wrong places and not enough on the top of my head. I also have a deep voice.
I have spent thousands of dollars on electrolysis, and laser hair removal treatments. I took voice lessons to try to develop a higher vocal range. I found a Doctor that would give me a prescription for hormones.
What are my choices? 1) Try to transition even though I may never pass with this body no matter how much surgery is involved. (Very expensive, May never find employment again, Be labeled with an incurable psycho-sexual disorder) OR 2) Try to live with the disparity between mind and body.
I know that I am basically an unhappy person. If I could take a magic pill and turn into a biological woman, I would do it in a heartbeat. If a pill existed that would make me not care, I would take that. The pills do not exist. There are no good options for me. No matter what I do, I will be looked down upon by almost everyone including many who can only accept the so called “true-transsexual”.
So life goes on…. I will continue to not look in mirrors. I will continue to try to distract myself and try to not think about it. Maybe somehow I will make it to the end without committing suicide.
However, I refuse to condemn anyone on the transgender SPECTRUM. Life is hard for all of us. The same people hate all of us, some so much that they feel we should all be killed. Just because I have not had GRS, or meet the criteria for a so called “true-transsexual” does not make me a fetishist. Why look down on anyone that does not meet a very narrow criteria and call their existence (my existence) a lie. That is invalidating as any rightwing fundamentalist, and is quite frankly insulting.
07/29/2009 at 7:16 pm
There is no “transgender spectrum”. This disrespects different people who are coming from completely different places.
You are angrily arguing some case to people who if they are like me simply do not care. I believe in actions not identities. I am an existentialist not an essentialist. For me the proof is not in a wall of arguments but in Cybele’s Knife, the Sex Reassignment Surgery.
As for transvestitism being based on fetishism…. I don’t much believe in fetishism and think it is only a faith based label used since invoking Deuteronomy 22:5 — A man’s item shall not be on a woman, and a man shall not wear a woman’s garment; whoever does such a thing is an abhorrence unto god. would bring forth great peals of laughter and result in the quack being called on their quackery.
As for not passing… One of my dearest friends first transitioned in the early 1970s. He was a father of two sons. Built with a body and head size and shape that would preclude her ever passing. In the 1980s she went back to being a guy, finished raising his sons, had a career in the IT field, married a woman. In the late 1990s she transitioned again, divorced wife. Found a niche in the underground world where hippie meets queer meet Burning Man and Rainbow Tribe plus the BDSM scene.
The difference is there is a transsexual and transgender awareness and an acceptence among her circle that make life easier than when we were crashing into the Ronzo Reagan right wing backlash.
Excuses are for those unwilling to summon forth the existential courage to act.
Further the labeling of TVs as all being fetishists is crap unless one labels Harley owners and a sizable portion of sports fans fetishists too.
Mostly though it is just a piece of hate speech.
07/29/2009 at 11:50 pm
to me, this sentence:
“It’s not about “policing boundries”, nor is it about “othering” people.”
and this sentence:
“It IS about people putting labels on, and defining, others.”
are contradictory.
Am I really entitled to label and define other people?
07/30/2009 at 4:51 am
The thing that frankly amazes me is that you have a group who truly are “experts” on classic transsexuality, those who had the condition, had it treated and are often decades post-corrected living as they should be. We, as a group, differ on politics, religion, etc. but when it comes to the subject of classic transsexuality, we agree on all the major points and those are in opposition to the “professional” party line and the transgender one. We have among our numbers women who are housewives, pink collar workers, educators, theologians and even some psychiatrists and psychologists.
And we are ignored, silenced and dismissed.
If you are in the middle of transition, you don’t know it all. If you are just out of transition, you probably still lack the emotional detachment. If you are pre transition you are literally without a clue yet…….but these are the voices given credence on the subject.
Many of the voices here are literally the elders with sometimes decades of experience. Most of us are no longer part of the discussion for once corrected, you are finally on an even basis with the rest of the world but some of us are still voicing our truths because we are concerned about the lies, the ones coming after us, the very real possibilities that treatment won’t be available in the future as a result of the political agendas of others.
07/30/2009 at 10:47 am
Now, there you go Catkisser – threatening the legitimacy of the catechism again.
For this thou shalt be surrounded by an angry throng. Thou shalt be verbally stoned. Yeah scorn shalt be released upon thee – even unto the seventh son of your neighbors granddaughter!
Verily I say unto you that thou shalt be forgiven. Returneth to the fold and repeat the catechism correctly for TG’ism is a benign god. Thus will thy sin be overlooked – at least on this occasion.
07/30/2009 at 11:05 am
Catkisser saod: “And we are ignored, silenced and dismissed.”
I sincerely believe that is changing (albeit, slowly). Even five years ago I could see the foreign press start in small ways to distinguish between TS and TG. That has accelerated and even portions of the US press has picked up on it (albeit, in small ways). If we keep at it, the reality of daily life will correct the social fantasies.
Just last week, a (natal) friend mentioned hearing a report on TV that was wrong. I believe it had to do with the TG mayor out west that tarted up for a public appearance with children.
My friend, who knows about my past and rarely mentions it, knew what was going. She noted with outrage that the TG person states publicly he is a man who just likes to “dress like a woman”. The mayor’s outfit consisted of impossibly high stacked heels, a micromini, and a strappy top with oversized boobs.
My friend said: “Sharon, you are nothing like these people!” I don’t take that as an ego stroke but a statement of fact. I replied that “Hardly anyone is.” Another statement of fact.
The more we are out in the world doing our woman things, the greater the contrast. We don’t even have to try or proselytize, just Be.
Now, excuse me, I am heading out to visit with sick old lady in the neighborhood, do grocery shopping, and buy some socks.
07/31/2009 at 10:59 am
Catkisser saod: “And we are ignored, silenced and dismissed.”
On this to, I have to disagree, If I did not pay attention to the experiences of the “Classic Transsexual” , I would not be a reader of this blog.
The point I was attempting to make is that society should not pigeon-hole us into neat little categories. We often argue about what words we use and what we allow others to use. Transgender is one word for which everyone seems to have their own definition
I had issues with some of the points in the original commentary. And especially with the word LIES in the title.
Quite frankly, NOBODY knows enough about the subject. We know our own experience, but that may not apply to others. We definitely need more research on the brain and how it develops.
I tried to tell my story to point out the pain that exists even among those that may not meet the correct “definition”. I did this in the hope that maybe others would not dismiss all of us that are not actively trying to transition. I am not rejecting you, I am trying to learn from your experiences. Maybe it will help me overcome my fears?
But let us think of other possibilities, than “you are not really a transsexual if you are not transitioning”. What might be some possibilities?
1) Some people are more willing to take chances than others. This is a personality trait outside of sexuality. Are people that transition the people that are more willing to take chances. Maybe I feel the same thing as you do but I am just the other end of the spectrum in my willingness to gamble.
2) Some people are very conformist and have trouble bucking society. I have to admit that I am one of them. If I did not care what society thought so much, maybe I would have transitioned many years ago. If I was more of a conformist, I may have committed suicide like so many of us do.
3) When I came out to my parents, I had bags packed with the expectation that I would be kicked out of the house. (I wasn’t) If I had been kicked out, maybe I would have completed the transition, instead of maintaining stealth to keep peace in the house.
I concede that the term “transgender” is so broad as to be almost meaningless. And maybe we should reserve the term “Transsexual” for the narrow definition that you prefer. The English language does not yet have the terms and structure to adequately discuss the subject . But I believe that a person’s gender identity is not binary but is a spectrum.
I know how I feel when society rejects me. I may not have the same motivations that a so called transvestite does, but I can relate to the rejection, fear and discrimination that they experience because they are exactly the same. Maybe you meet the definition of “classic transsexual”, and I don’t, But the RELIGION of psychology labels us both as “disordered” (look at their bible the “DSM-IV”
I once again refuse to condemn anybody when the hard evidence is just not there yet. We have hard evidence that there are differences in the brain between men and women, and that transsexuals seem to have female brain structure. But that is as far as it goes. I do not know of any conclusive evidence that says “brain structure XYZ is where gender Identify resides”. There are many differences, but which part or parts of the brain is the key is still unknown.
07/31/2009 at 11:25 am
I don’t much care about brain structures. I don’t much believe in 90% of the babble about gender as I consider gender a social construct that is mainly used to turn poor men into cannon/factory fodder and women into slaves.
I am an existentialist and I believe in being through doing. Your actions define you as do your accomplishment.s
You may well be transsexual in your thoughts and fantasies. There are lots who play transsexual on line including some that get so caught up in it the only way out is to create a fictional murder. To me they are all J.T. Leroy.
I don’t really care.
If you are transsexual then transition even if it means living in a city big enough to support a transghetto.
07/31/2009 at 11:46 am
Jennifer Said: “I do not know of any conclusive evidence that says ‘brain structure XYZ is where gender Identify resides’. There are many differences, but which part or parts of the brain is the key is still unknown.”
There is more evidence than you concede, but even if you could get very specific about a particular brain area, the information would be of limited utility. The brain is our wetware and reconfigures to meet exigency (such as what happens in cases of blindness or brain damage).
The formation of the neural crest and consequent nervous system (which includes the brain as a whole) is more complex than a simple geopositioning of cause and effect.
In any case, there need be no blame or dishonor in being pre-op.
My experience has been that transition was easy compared to what went before and a mere annoyance compared to the wonder that is my life now.
I seldom speak of my tough times getting here; things are tough all over.
07/31/2009 at 4:09 pm
Suzan:
I am sorry that my comments have upset you. I do not mean to “disrespect different people who are coming from completely different places”. And I do not think that I “labeled TVs as all being fetishists”. (I did discount my particular case as being fetish based which the commentary seemed to say)
I fully acknowledge that there are people that are 100% opposite “brain sexed” than their bodies.
I think that we do not yet have sufficient ways / categories / set definitions in the language to get our meaning across on this subject without sometimes arguing when we may actually 90% agree on things.
I admire you in that you are strong willed enough to have done what you have done. I will acknowledge that I have not yet summoned forth the courage to act.
Although I may not have followed the same path as you, I believe that I am empathetic enough to feel where you are coming from after reading your life story. I acknowledge that I cannot fully know or understand your experience as each person is an individual. The point of my posts was to give a different life story, and try to show the similarities / differences. I think all life experiences are valid and can lead to a better understanding of humanity. The better we understand each other, the better we can all get along.
I do care about the science, and why we are as we are. Maybe if we can point at physiological conditions, in a 100 years or so, society will not be as hard on a child, as society has been on us but this might just be wishful thinking. Maybe I just want to make myself feel better by pointing at a “cause”
We may never agree on our philosophy, and I hope I have not driven you further away from those of us who may not be fully 100% either way. If you want me to “but out” of your blog, I will.
07/31/2009 at 8:16 pm
I’m not upset.
I’m not sure I believe in “brain sex” because that may well be irrelevant and it could be something else like the way hormones get processed.
All I know is that I rate people on how they act not what they claim to believe, something I find very useful in a land of thieves and and liars who profess to be born again Christians.
As for the physiological causing people to be nicer to us or treat us as somehow more legitimate… Gee that one’s worked so well for Black folks and women that I would want to bet on it happening.
Not giving into you is not the same as not wanting you to post. Trust me if that were the case you wouldn’t be posting.
08/02/2009 at 11:12 pm
It was written: “kim Says:
07/29/2009 at 11:50 PM
to me, this sentence:
“It’s not about “policing boundries”, nor is it about “othering” people.”
and this sentence:
“It IS about people putting labels on, and defining, others.”
are contradictory.
Am I really entitled to label and define other people?”
No!
My post was: “It’s not about “policing boundries”, nor is it about “othering” people. It IS about people putting labels on, and defining, others. That’s one of the main arguments against the “transgender umbrella” — people who attempt to define others, attempt to make “gender” the defining issue, and who feel it’s their right to say who is, or is not, a woman — all based on their reading of “gender”.”
“One of the main arguments against the ‘Transgender Umbrella’.”.
WBT, is not about “othering” anyone — it is a statement about the individual speaking. It’s about what I am, and in no way defines you.
When a TG supporter TELLS me what I AM — that person has defined me, has told me what I am, what (they think) I must be, and where I fit into their neat little structure.
I have been defined, and “othered” by that person.
When I speak for myself, I am showing agency, I am standing for myself. When my life is in agreement with the stance I’ve taken, when I “walk the walk” in addition to “talking the talk”, I’ve made a greater statement about my reality.
When other folks (who know nothing about me) tell me who / what I am, must be, where I fit in their structure / matrix / etc. they have othered, defined me.
There was no contradiction in my statements.
08/03/2009 at 8:38 am
Forget it Tina….they are incapable of understanding where they end and others begin. It’s called absolute entitlement. We are never to be allowed our own identity, only the one they assign because they outnumber us and in their world, might makes right unless it’s someone else with greater might……male logic in other words.
08/10/2009 at 8:27 am
Hey Great blogsite!
>“It IS about people putting labels on, and defining, others.”
Yeah, I got that!
I’m sick and tired of transgenders telling me that I ‘acquired’ my transsexualism through identifying with my mother at an early age and that I didn’t really need to have corrective surgery….
I’m sick and tired of ‘them’ putting labels on and defining *me*.
More than twenty years down the line from my corrective surgery and not for a nano second have I ever regretted it. I had this idea of what my body should be like since as early as I can remember and surprise, when I got it changed to be like I imagined it, hey I had exactly the feeling I had expected about it, it was great…
Why do these people think that they can tell us what we should be thinking and feeling about our own bodies, but at the same time they are accusing *us* of telling *them* what they should be like?
I don’t know what anyone else imagines about what they should be, but I do know that I fit the classic transsexual profile.
I’m really glad to find a blog where this is affirmed and we don’t have to put up with ‘female penises’ and such nonsense as that… Really! Are we actually supposed to take that seriously?! LOL
08/10/2009 at 5:13 pm
At the same time I have 24/7 TG friends and I think calling people names is childish and more harmful to the WBT cause than respectful dialogue.