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	<title>Comments on: Compromises</title>
	<atom:link href="http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/</link>
	<description>Women born with transsexualism</description>
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		<title>By: Zoe Brain</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-1072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zoe Brain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:09:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-1072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately it is physically impossible for those who are Intersexed to conform to the requirements of the GRC.

The ICD-10 is used to define Transsexuality:

Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:

   1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment
   2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years
   3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality 

Anyone who has a chromosomal abnormality cannot be considered Gender Dysphoric by the GRC. And as the existing caselaw on Intersex has been overturned by the GERBIL, there is no avenue open for those with Intersex that is, or may be, of genetic etiology.

It *is* possible for Intersexed people to obtain an amended (not new) Birth Certificate. But it requires that   two attending physicians at the birth attest to the fact that the appearance at birth does not match that recorded on the Birth Certificate.

With permission of both parents, a new BC can be issued, rather than an amended one.

If born at home (as I was) with no attending physician, or with ambiguous genitalia that is not contrary to either sex, tough. There are also few physicians who attended births in the 1950&#039;s still alive.

It is no exaggeration to say that the GERBIL has been a complete disaster for Intersexed people in the UK.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately it is physically impossible for those who are Intersexed to conform to the requirements of the GRC.</p>
<p>The ICD-10 is used to define Transsexuality:</p>
<p>Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:</p>
<p>   1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment<br />
   2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years<br />
   3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality </p>
<p>Anyone who has a chromosomal abnormality cannot be considered Gender Dysphoric by the GRC. And as the existing caselaw on Intersex has been overturned by the GERBIL, there is no avenue open for those with Intersex that is, or may be, of genetic etiology.</p>
<p>It *is* possible for Intersexed people to obtain an amended (not new) Birth Certificate. But it requires that   two attending physicians at the birth attest to the fact that the appearance at birth does not match that recorded on the Birth Certificate.</p>
<p>With permission of both parents, a new BC can be issued, rather than an amended one.</p>
<p>If born at home (as I was) with no attending physician, or with ambiguous genitalia that is not contrary to either sex, tough. There are also few physicians who attended births in the 1950&#8242;s still alive.</p>
<p>It is no exaggeration to say that the GERBIL has been a complete disaster for Intersexed people in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Evangelina</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-1071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evangelina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-1071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrea, CASSANDRASPEAKS is my website, I happened to be logged in when I replied to you.
Perhaps I should clarify my position regarding GERBIL and PFC. when I made the posting you are complaining about. Suzan was asking for some co-operation with transgender groups for various issues and suggested that the involvement of PFC was a positive thing. I believe it probably was; however there can be no doubt that there were some aspects of GERBIL that ended up as biased in favour of TG. Personally I would have said no surgery no birth certificate change. I wrote to PFC on many occasions asking for that rule. It didn&#039;t happen.
The anomoly that is Kleinfelters within GERBIL is one of those areas where the legislation was rushed and fails. Until gerbil, changes to birth certificates were routinely allowed for situations such as Kleinfelters. Unfortunately the bill affected that process. Those who have Kleinfelters are supposed to conform to legislation desigend for Transgender in essence, not even transsexual in my view.
I have a copy of Gerbil as passed if you would like it email me. 
As I understand the workings of the Gender Recognition Certificate, when one is granted the registrar general is notified that one has been issued and they write requesting in formation which you provide and return. A new Birth Certificate is then issued. The record of that process is held and is available to police ONLY if they can provide evidence that a crime has been committed by that person and their change of certificate is a factor in investigating the crime. They cannot look at the register just because they &quot; feel like it&quot;. They must provide good reason, again this is contained in the bill.
The most dangerous piece of UK legislation in my view is the introduction of identity cards. That is worse even than GERBIL as it affects us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrea, CASSANDRASPEAKS is my website, I happened to be logged in when I replied to you.<br />
Perhaps I should clarify my position regarding GERBIL and PFC. when I made the posting you are complaining about. Suzan was asking for some co-operation with transgender groups for various issues and suggested that the involvement of PFC was a positive thing. I believe it probably was; however there can be no doubt that there were some aspects of GERBIL that ended up as biased in favour of TG. Personally I would have said no surgery no birth certificate change. I wrote to PFC on many occasions asking for that rule. It didn&#8217;t happen.<br />
The anomoly that is Kleinfelters within GERBIL is one of those areas where the legislation was rushed and fails. Until gerbil, changes to birth certificates were routinely allowed for situations such as Kleinfelters. Unfortunately the bill affected that process. Those who have Kleinfelters are supposed to conform to legislation desigend for Transgender in essence, not even transsexual in my view.<br />
I have a copy of Gerbil as passed if you would like it email me.<br />
As I understand the workings of the Gender Recognition Certificate, when one is granted the registrar general is notified that one has been issued and they write requesting in formation which you provide and return. A new Birth Certificate is then issued. The record of that process is held and is available to police ONLY if they can provide evidence that a crime has been committed by that person and their change of certificate is a factor in investigating the crime. They cannot look at the register just because they &#8221; feel like it&#8221;. They must provide good reason, again this is contained in the bill.<br />
The most dangerous piece of UK legislation in my view is the introduction of identity cards. That is worse even than GERBIL as it affects us.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-1070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-1070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cassandra, my comments were not aimed at you. They were aimed at Evangelina as I stated at the start of my message, for talking nonsense.

From what you say, we actually agree on the issues.

Regarding the Gerbil. Some weird stuff has been popping up about that, which we did not know about when it became law. It appears it may have removed some rights from a few intersex groups, such as Klinefelters and 5 alpha reductase. How that has come about is beyond my comprehension.

It appears a lot more went on behind closed doors than anyone realises.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cassandra, my comments were not aimed at you. They were aimed at Evangelina as I stated at the start of my message, for talking nonsense.</p>
<p>From what you say, we actually agree on the issues.</p>
<p>Regarding the Gerbil. Some weird stuff has been popping up about that, which we did not know about when it became law. It appears it may have removed some rights from a few intersex groups, such as Klinefelters and 5 alpha reductase. How that has come about is beyond my comprehension.</p>
<p>It appears a lot more went on behind closed doors than anyone realises.</p>
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		<title>By: cassandraspeaks</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-1069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cassandraspeaks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-1069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suppose everyone talks Crap but you Andrea? As it happens Christine Goodwin was a personal friend as was Kristina Sheffield, another of the cases instrumental in forcing the UK government to act. A few of the others were too. 
As regards PFC for the record and since I see them as transgender biased as an organisation I have little time for their antics or policy. If I&#039;d agreed with their policies I would have joined but I didn&#039;t and never would. 
There were far worse transgender organisations than PFC working with government departments at that time.
As I said before, GERBIL is less than perfect but at least it provides some benefits denied elsewhere. 
I am not your enemy Andrea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose everyone talks Crap but you Andrea? As it happens Christine Goodwin was a personal friend as was Kristina Sheffield, another of the cases instrumental in forcing the UK government to act. A few of the others were too.<br />
As regards PFC for the record and since I see them as transgender biased as an organisation I have little time for their antics or policy. If I&#8217;d agreed with their policies I would have joined but I didn&#8217;t and never would.<br />
There were far worse transgender organisations than PFC working with government departments at that time.<br />
As I said before, GERBIL is less than perfect but at least it provides some benefits denied elsewhere.<br />
I am not your enemy Andrea.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-1062</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 07:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-1062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Evangelina, regarding PFC and the Gender Recognition Act you are talking complete crap.

Employment rights in the UK came about because a WBT took a ccourt case the whole way to the European Cout of Justice.  That was absolutely nothing to do with PFC.

Due to it being a European court rulling (P V S), all the transsexual people in the Area covered by the European Court of Justice, got empoyment rights. That case covered people INTENDING TO, UNDERGOING or who have COMPELTED sex reassignment surgery. She was not a member of PFC at the time, contrary to anything you may have been told.

As for the Gender Recognition Act. Both women who took those court cases (Goodwin V UK and I V UK), were not members of PFC. One of the women went so far as to go on TV condemning the proposed new law. A lot of transsexual people complained about the law. I was moderating a number of lists at the time and had to restrain a lot of people&#039;s language over it. There was a lot of genuine anger at PFC&#039;s anti under 18 stance and preference for non-ops.

No member of PFC has sucessfully challenged any law in court to my knowledge. Stephen Whittle is a good example of court failures.

PFC hijacked the law change consultation process that had to legally occur after the Goodwin V UK and I V UK cases and changed it into a transgender law. All people who apply through the GRA are now put on an electronic register, which holds details in a similar manner to the sex offenders register, which the police can access. In the UK they may as well be wearing an electronic yellow star.

In PFC some of the activists on the ground level achieved a lot. Most have left PFC due to it being a dictatorship, complete control of all activites, constnat attacks by vice presidents on activists, betrayal and an extreme animal farm mentality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evangelina, regarding PFC and the Gender Recognition Act you are talking complete crap.</p>
<p>Employment rights in the UK came about because a WBT took a ccourt case the whole way to the European Cout of Justice.  That was absolutely nothing to do with PFC.</p>
<p>Due to it being a European court rulling (P V S), all the transsexual people in the Area covered by the European Court of Justice, got empoyment rights. That case covered people INTENDING TO, UNDERGOING or who have COMPELTED sex reassignment surgery. She was not a member of PFC at the time, contrary to anything you may have been told.</p>
<p>As for the Gender Recognition Act. Both women who took those court cases (Goodwin V UK and I V UK), were not members of PFC. One of the women went so far as to go on TV condemning the proposed new law. A lot of transsexual people complained about the law. I was moderating a number of lists at the time and had to restrain a lot of people&#8217;s language over it. There was a lot of genuine anger at PFC&#8217;s anti under 18 stance and preference for non-ops.</p>
<p>No member of PFC has sucessfully challenged any law in court to my knowledge. Stephen Whittle is a good example of court failures.</p>
<p>PFC hijacked the law change consultation process that had to legally occur after the Goodwin V UK and I V UK cases and changed it into a transgender law. All people who apply through the GRA are now put on an electronic register, which holds details in a similar manner to the sex offenders register, which the police can access. In the UK they may as well be wearing an electronic yellow star.</p>
<p>In PFC some of the activists on the ground level achieved a lot. Most have left PFC due to it being a dictatorship, complete control of all activites, constnat attacks by vice presidents on activists, betrayal and an extreme animal farm mentality.</p>
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		<title>By: tinagrrl</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tinagrrl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think another problem lies in the various identities FtM&#039;s have.  

There are &quot;Bois&quot;, &quot;Boyz&quot;, and many more that have come about after I left the LGBT groups.  There are the FtM&#039;s who claim a male identity yet remain in the Lesbian community.  Some still teach their Women&#039;s Studies classes, and remain tenured faculty members  (perhaps it&#039;s &quot;gender studies&quot; now).  

It&#039;s appears comvenient for those folks to embrace &quot;transgender&quot;  --  in addition, it seems easier to be a &quot;gender outlaw&quot;, or be in opposition to the &quot;oppressive gender binary&quot; when you have a secure job, in a welcoming (or, if not quite &quot;welcoming&quot;, then accepting) place.

I know I sound cynical, but I&#039;ve met too many &quot;gender freaks&quot; who clean up after a night partying and go to their VERY &quot;straight&quot; jobs every day.  A WBT does not usually  have that liberty.

We (WBT&#039;s) work at being accepted as women every day, as being seen as what we are.  There is no glory or celebrity in being WBT.  Even though some activists are &quot;out&quot;, most still have private lives as just &quot;regular folks&quot;, just women.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think another problem lies in the various identities FtM&#8217;s have.  </p>
<p>There are &#8220;Bois&#8221;, &#8220;Boyz&#8221;, and many more that have come about after I left the LGBT groups.  There are the FtM&#8217;s who claim a male identity yet remain in the Lesbian community.  Some still teach their Women&#8217;s Studies classes, and remain tenured faculty members  (perhaps it&#8217;s &#8220;gender studies&#8221; now).  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s appears comvenient for those folks to embrace &#8220;transgender&#8221;  &#8212;  in addition, it seems easier to be a &#8220;gender outlaw&#8221;, or be in opposition to the &#8220;oppressive gender binary&#8221; when you have a secure job, in a welcoming (or, if not quite &#8220;welcoming&#8221;, then accepting) place.</p>
<p>I know I sound cynical, but I&#8217;ve met too many &#8220;gender freaks&#8221; who clean up after a night partying and go to their VERY &#8220;straight&#8221; jobs every day.  A WBT does not usually  have that liberty.</p>
<p>We (WBT&#8217;s) work at being accepted as women every day, as being seen as what we are.  There is no glory or celebrity in being WBT.  Even though some activists are &#8220;out&#8221;, most still have private lives as just &#8220;regular folks&#8221;, just women.</p>
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		<title>By: tinagrrl</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-964</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tinagrrl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think a lot of support groups are more comfortable with a TG focus.  Many are based in LGBT Centers where many Lesbians see ALL T folks (TG, TV, pre-op, post-op, etc.) as &quot;transgender.  They are not quite ready to accept post-ops as women.

Few, if any post-ops will march with any of the various &quot;T&quot; groups in Pride Parades.  If they march at all, it&#039;s with other affinity groups within the LGBT community. 

I marched with a group promoting sobriety.  Not AA, but one that supported grass roots organizing to provide education, alternatives, and harm reduction (we were funded by a Federal grant  --  wasn&#039;t very effective, though the idea was good). 

I was unable to attend any of the Gender Identity Project groups after SRS  --  all I wanted to do there was yell out, &quot;WTF are you folks talking about?&quot;.  

Until folks at the various LGBT Centers &quot;adjust&quot; their attitudes toward, opinions of, WBT&#039;s / post-ops, I do not think much headway will be made toward reducing the power TG&#039;s have over these groups.

Of course, the demands of acceptance by some brand new post-ops, many of which are couched in rather male terms, do not help any of us in the fight for acceptance.  One of the keys might be to REQUEST, rather than DEMAND.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of support groups are more comfortable with a TG focus.  Many are based in LGBT Centers where many Lesbians see ALL T folks (TG, TV, pre-op, post-op, etc.) as &#8220;transgender.  They are not quite ready to accept post-ops as women.</p>
<p>Few, if any post-ops will march with any of the various &#8220;T&#8221; groups in Pride Parades.  If they march at all, it&#8217;s with other affinity groups within the LGBT community. </p>
<p>I marched with a group promoting sobriety.  Not AA, but one that supported grass roots organizing to provide education, alternatives, and harm reduction (we were funded by a Federal grant  &#8212;  wasn&#8217;t very effective, though the idea was good). </p>
<p>I was unable to attend any of the Gender Identity Project groups after SRS  &#8212;  all I wanted to do there was yell out, &#8220;WTF are you folks talking about?&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Until folks at the various LGBT Centers &#8220;adjust&#8221; their attitudes toward, opinions of, WBT&#8217;s / post-ops, I do not think much headway will be made toward reducing the power TG&#8217;s have over these groups.</p>
<p>Of course, the demands of acceptance by some brand new post-ops, many of which are couched in rather male terms, do not help any of us in the fight for acceptance.  One of the keys might be to REQUEST, rather than DEMAND.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon Gaughan</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon Gaughan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My experience over many years had been that venues for women born transsexual were inevitably invaded - and taken over - by men. I remember how even Suzie&#039;s pre-WBT list had its share of trolls and invaders.

We started open publication in March 2006 and kept our focus despite a lot of complaints. Even then, dedicated venues were few. The online world has changed a lot since then, what with the rise of blogs. It is still hard, though; our site comes under regular attack (verbal and system).

The physical world is another matter. We keep hearing about local support groups that turn to the TG agenda preferences, the pre-ops are confused, and the post-ops flee. That has to change before any serious and coordinated TS/TG cooperation can occur.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience over many years had been that venues for women born transsexual were inevitably invaded &#8211; and taken over &#8211; by men. I remember how even Suzie&#8217;s pre-WBT list had its share of trolls and invaders.</p>
<p>We started open publication in March 2006 and kept our focus despite a lot of complaints. Even then, dedicated venues were few. The online world has changed a lot since then, what with the rise of blogs. It is still hard, though; our site comes under regular attack (verbal and system).</p>
<p>The physical world is another matter. We keep hearing about local support groups that turn to the TG agenda preferences, the pre-ops are confused, and the post-ops flee. That has to change before any serious and coordinated TS/TG cooperation can occur.</p>
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		<title>By: Evangelina</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evangelina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh and for the record I am with Sharon on this one! I was fortunate in that I was able to use my education to get work and as a result I had resources to fund my surgery. Not everyone is as lucky. Establishing medical cause for transsexuality is paramount. Transgender doctrine is not helpful.
PFC in UK have been key in campaigning to get essential surgery paid for by the public purse as it should be. PFC have their faults but on this issue I support them. 
PFC have also been key in getting employment rights and I support them on those issues. UK already has it&#039;s own version of ENDA I don&#039;t agree with everything they campaign for though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and for the record I am with Sharon on this one! I was fortunate in that I was able to use my education to get work and as a result I had resources to fund my surgery. Not everyone is as lucky. Establishing medical cause for transsexuality is paramount. Transgender doctrine is not helpful.<br />
PFC in UK have been key in campaigning to get essential surgery paid for by the public purse as it should be. PFC have their faults but on this issue I support them.<br />
PFC have also been key in getting employment rights and I support them on those issues. UK already has it&#8217;s own version of ENDA I don&#8217;t agree with everything they campaign for though.</p>
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		<title>By: Evangelina</title>
		<link>http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/07/17/compromises/#comment-961</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Evangelina]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://womenborntranssexual.com/?p=1189#comment-961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, it&#039;s certainly more than just three people who have verbally attacked or rather bad mouthed me in the past. Not to mention spread lies about me and said things about me &quot;they&quot; (as in more than three) cannot possibly have known, even if true!
The bill fondly referred to as GERBIL was passed with the united support and effort of TG and women born transsexual. As a piece of legislation it has flaws, it is not a perfect bill by any means. However it is a lot better than that which exists in a few other countries; USA included I am sad to say. Only goes to show what can be achieved when we bury our differences for the common good. 
What gets under my skin more than anything is the insistance from a great many TG that they can be women AND keep their penis. When I oppose that concept the fight starts. 
I&#039;m reluctant to get into a public discussion with you Suzy over pre-op and TG heteronormative relationships. I&#039;d be happy to carry that one to private emails if you do want to have the discussion. My instinct is to draw the line at &quot;intent&quot; otherwise the relationship is a gay one. However, my mind is not closed on that issue. I&#039;ve just not heard an argument that convinces me otherwise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s certainly more than just three people who have verbally attacked or rather bad mouthed me in the past. Not to mention spread lies about me and said things about me &#8220;they&#8221; (as in more than three) cannot possibly have known, even if true!<br />
The bill fondly referred to as GERBIL was passed with the united support and effort of TG and women born transsexual. As a piece of legislation it has flaws, it is not a perfect bill by any means. However it is a lot better than that which exists in a few other countries; USA included I am sad to say. Only goes to show what can be achieved when we bury our differences for the common good.<br />
What gets under my skin more than anything is the insistance from a great many TG that they can be women AND keep their penis. When I oppose that concept the fight starts.<br />
I&#8217;m reluctant to get into a public discussion with you Suzy over pre-op and TG heteronormative relationships. I&#8217;d be happy to carry that one to private emails if you do want to have the discussion. My instinct is to draw the line at &#8220;intent&#8221; otherwise the relationship is a gay one. However, my mind is not closed on that issue. I&#8217;ve just not heard an argument that convinces me otherwise.</p>
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