My calling upon my WBT sisters and MBT brothers to support the building of social support systems for pre-op TS and TG people doesn’t mean I am surrendering to the “We are all part of the transgender umbrella” paradigm of the late 1990s and early 21st century.
I still think people with transsexualism are inherently different from people with transgenderism. Just as I believe that lesbians are different on many many levels from gay men and that saying both are homosexual (one element of their being) therefore gay should be the umbrella term lead to a nearly 10 year conflict in the 1970s that resulted in a compromise that led to what had been the “Gay Community” now being called the “Gay and Lesbian Community”, a compromise that would ease the working together of TS and TG people would be the acknowledging of our differences.
I have already started to notice greater proper usage of the label transsexual to people who identify as TS and not TG. I also occasionally see LGBT/T or GLBTT. It’s a start.
When I started this blog the first thing that happened is that a few people made snide remarks about Andrea James and Lynn Conway. They wanted me to embrace things like “HBS” and “Classic Transsexual”. I probably disappointed a number of folks when I embraced neither.
I actually like the term “Transsexual” for the name of what I was born. Not so much as an identity but it gives clarity to the oppression I endured as a transkid and it doesn’t hide the reality of my life journey behind a bunch of jargon aimed at obscuring.
As for “classic transsexual” I recognize it for what it is, a post-moderning term for heterosexual transsexual. as such I tend to see it as both homophobic and as a slam against sisters who come out later in life. It goes against my theories that the root cause of transsexualism is the same for almost all transsexuals and the truth can be found in the narrative. Reading biography after biography leads me to this conclusion that actual people with TS knew as early as their first conscious memories.
The rest is a matter of existential circumstance. I trust the veracity of our narratives more than the theories of the misogynistic psych establishment.
As for the homophobia. I claimed bisexuality even before I came out. I never hid being bisexual during the process yet it seemed like all my heterosexual sisters in the program I went through were surprised I was a lesbian when I came out after SRS. Then many wanted me to provide them with their lesbian experience and I became a 1970s version of The L-Word‘s Shane. But some asked the snotty question, “Does this mean you are going back to being a guy?”
So even within WBT there is a lot of fighting over who is transsexual in the correct way.
As a lesbian WBT I pretty much have to be down with feminism, as well as those issues special to the LGBT/TQ communities anyhow because straights have this bad history of throwing all of us under the bus
In the late 1970s Anitia Bryant and the rabid right wing religious fanatics caused gay and lesbian people to shake hands and agree on respecting both and calling the result the “Gay and Lesbian Community” or communities if you are a grammar cop. Crisis brought unity, the AIDS crisis cemented that bond.
A similar compromise would be Transsexual and Transgender Communities. LGBT/T or TS/TG and putting those into usage.
This probably isn’t going to satisfy the straight CDs nor will it satisfy the straight WBTs but they locate their lives outside of the alphabet city of the non-straight minorities. We are the ones who should work on working it out.
We have already worked together on an inclusive ENDA and Hate Crimes Bills.
I also realize there are ideologues on the “Transgender as Umbrella” side of this equasion who will be totally unwilling to compromise on this either but the continuing petty fighting among the various oppressed groups only divides us and means we accomplish nothing.
07/17/2009 at 5:10 PM
Great post Suzan…
Internecine fighting among groups with common oppressors has always seemed a bit silly. Especially when all that was required to promote a less fragile collective was to recognize inherent differences.
07/20/2009 at 7:42 PM
i am appalled that for all the venomous hate given by transsexuals against transgenders, almost no transsexual i know of offers any sort of real advice or support for new transsexuals, beyond critically judging their ‘legitimacy’ by ‘vibe’ and ‘behavior’.
i need to hear practical advice from as many women as possible that have succeeded the way i need to. Advice such as, are there any ways i haven’t thought of for surgery money? Are there completed women who have *not* hidden their past and had overall positive experiences for it, or is invented pasts the universal rule? Are there support groups for post-operative women who are fighting a state that won’t alter birth certificates?
i don’t need to hear for the hundreth time how TG are ‘ruining everything’.
Thank you for this post.
07/20/2009 at 7:59 PM
Some of us tried in the early years to become helping professionals only to run into professional advice givers telling us we couldn’t be objective. Or the oldie and not so goodie of, “You only want to be a professional trannie and live your life in the ghetto.”
There is also something that happens once everything is behind you and that is a tendency to not want to continue living in the energy zone of transition. Unless you are a helping pro, it gets boring.
Plus you have to take a lot of shit from those who go stealth, usually heterosexual and often right wing who will trash you up one side of the street and down the other.
You may not be aware but I’m currently being trashed on a couple of other blogs and by some people I won’t let post here. I’m considered a sell out and a Transgender Activist in everything but name.
All because I had the gut to call for an end to the horizontal hostility and I happen to have this long history so I have a certain amount of respect given me due to that history.
Lynn Conway hasn’t hidden her past, neither has Andrea James. I compartmentalize mine but unless I wear a Transsexual Menace t-shirt my history is pretty much invisible outside of the LGBT/T and left wing activist circles.
As for surgery money…. About 10 years ago I could have given you 20 ideas. But we are in a depression now and everyone is scrambling just to keep a roof over their heads and not lose everything.
07/20/2009 at 11:15 PM
Outside of a handful of specific people, no one in the online community knows i even exist. With zero history and zero respect, i guess i am afforded a certain amount of freedom.
There are certain realities that have become obvious to me, and that is the distinct difference between different T online. It’s much more significant than i originally thought.
As a relative newcomer online, i’ve been digging deep.
A large majority of transgender people, despite professed upheaval in their lives with transition, don’t seem to convey in any meaningful way a serious psychological disruption over their proclaimed misalignment. That dressing and projecting is enough for them to live a fulfilled life. Which is fine (to each their own), but leaves me feeling misunderstood by those who claim to understand me.
By digging deeper i see a significant number of transgenders and a staggering amount of transvestites that appear to be sexually motivated. This tends to leave me cold, as a female persona for them would be a game. My life is not a game. And i have no desire to be forced to participate in a man’s sexual roleplay in public by referring to him as a ‘woman’.
As for what you said about the transition zone, i’m already sick and tired of it. It’s the last thing i want to talk about in person, and it’s becoming the last thing i want to write about online. i
One one hand, i just want to move the hell on. On the other hand, there is a distinct lack of support for new transsexuals. They can read a lot of negative anti-transgender talk, but ultimately get no help. Then they are forced to turn to those same transgenders which don’t seem to fully understand them, and then get slapped down or pushed out when they voice the differences.
Somebody’s got to do something.
07/20/2009 at 11:28 PM
“Somebody’s got to do something.”
In 1971 I had been full time for a couple of years. I had a boy friend who was a deserter, lived in Berkeley and was a left wing militant.
I got pissed of while at a Jazz Festival with my boyfriend about the anti-woman/ anti-gay comments from the performers.
I took to heart the slogan, “If you not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.”
I went to the Transsexual Counseling Service in San Francisco which was without funding and volunteered. Another sister and I got a grant and ran a center called the NTCU.
You say somebody’s got to do something.
The question is: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?
Was I that much more together as a hippie chick in 1971 Berkeley? Probably not considering we had like 3 books and no internet.
07/21/2009 at 12:22 AM
That dangerously flirts with simple-minded dynamics. That’s just an honest statement of my belief. Not a challenge for an arguement.
You are with us or against us. It’s either right or it’s wrong. Everything is black or white. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution. You are a leader or a follower.
It would be one thing to answer you by saying, ‘how can i give you an answer when i don’t understand the question’.
But it’s best simply to honestly say that i don’t deal in absolutes. Half the people that come across me think i’m part of the problem. The other half think i’m the solution. Both have a narrow-minded view in their little tug-of-war.
As much respect as i might have for those that have come before, i fear that the old-school style of absolutist thinking has rendered older activists ineffective at best, and obsolete at worst.
Somebody’s got to do something *new*.
07/21/2009 at 7:44 AM
If somebody has to do something new then why isn’t that someone you?
There seems to be a huge sense of entitlement on your part, an expectation that others should do it for you rather than you be part of the process of doing it
Being part of the solution doesn’t require you to be a leader even. There is a major need for those who just lend a hand.
Go out and find a support group and help it to meet your needs.
You know I’n not all that impressed by those who think they are so special that they have to hide their name and just complain. Not when there are hundreds if not thousands of sisters out doing activism and helping who are using their own names.
07/21/2009 at 9:13 AM
Not a sense of entitlement. A sense of confusion.
i have attempted twice to be a part of the process. Those who generally fall under what would be considered transgender tried to silence me and shut me out. Those who generally fall under what would be considered transsexual analyze me and tell me i’m not allowed ‘in’.
An accusation of meaningless ‘complaint’ is a fallback when someone cannot give a substantial solution to the concern raised. i am not sure where you are getting emotional about what i have brought up, or why you are insulting me about my name.
There is a vast difference between a pseudonym and being anonymous. After viewing my blog, the only possible explanation for anger or irritation over not giving my real name would be because it has thwarted any attempt to unnecessarily intrude into my personal information.
i was under the impression from your original post that you might be different from others, and open to communication from someone no matter what their ‘background’ or ‘allegiance’.
i see now that i was wrong. Take care.
07/21/2009 at 10:43 AM
Being pre-op is a strange place to be. Neither here nor there.
Transgenders are not your friends — many who say they are, are nothing more than sexual predators. Most post-ops just want to move on. They have been where you are, often for much too long. You can’t just rehash your life experiences over and over for those now coming along. In addition, going back to the past again and again can be VERY painful for those of us who lost damn near everything in transition.
I realize that transition is a time of ME. That’s exactly what it’s supposed to be. There never is anyone, or any group, that meets your (or my) specific needs. We all have different issues – even if they are exactly the same.
The objective is to beg, borrow, save (not steal) funds for SRS. Hopefully AFTER finishing electrolysis (though I didn’t completely finish electro. until after SRS). While going through that process get support wherever you can. Find other SRS tracked pre-ops. Go to whatever groups provide some measure of support.
Do not expect TG focused groups to give you much support. Expect to hear a lot of complaining from other pre-ops who think YOU have it made, are better off than they are. Do not fall into the trap of drinking and partying your surgery money away.
Save SOMETHING on a regular basis. Work as much as you can.
Other than that, very little advice anyone can give you.
There are no “secrets”. No magic pills. It’s just a daily slog to a specific goal.
That’s one of the reasons I followed all the “rules” — there were marker points, milestones, that showed me I was making progress.
07/21/2009 at 11:01 AM
When I first came on line there was a pre-op who always complained about post-ops. She said “you’ve got yours, now you abandon the “community”. After I have my surgery, I’m going to stay and help those coming after me.”. That was a CONSTANT refrain from this person.
About three months AFTER her SRS, she sent a message to groups saying she could no longer be involved in various “gender groups” because her life had changed so much.
I have not seen as much as one post from this person ANYWHERE since that final farewell post.
Most folks do not understand the difference SRS can make. Life changes. Needs change. New goals become much more possible. In many cases, there are new losses. Often folks who supported you throughout your pre-op phase cannot deal with the new you.
When in the midst of all the NEW changes, the very last thing most folks want to do is give advice — they don’t know what they’re doing at that moment.
Once life settles down, once we become comfortable in our new skin, once we get accustomed to not being “special” (all pre-ops are “special” — they HAVE to be) — being “just another woman”, one of the very last things we want to do is rehash our past.
Sometimes advice from a new post-op is the LAST thing a pre-op needs.
07/22/2009 at 4:19 AM
And sometimes, we’re doing exactly what we would be doing had we gotten the xx chromosomes. Supporting trans women.
Being post-op wasn’t a huge change for me. I was just being myself before, now I am even more so.
OK, having a love life is a big deal, but I’m just so busy parenting my son, doing a PhD and the volunteer work that I have little time to fit anything in.
So to speak.
If I had the time, I’d be more involved with the Women in Technology groups, and Feminism generally. There just aren’t enough hours in the day.
I’m anomalous though. For most women, before and after is so very different, their transition so traumatic, that they want to leave all that behind. Even for me, waking up and not being shocked and horrified by having the wrong shaped body any more is still a big deal. Something I don’t take for granted.
I’m “special”, always have been, always will be. Not many Rocket Scientists around. Few women of 51 with children only 8. Not many have travelled the world, slept on top of torpedos, or been part of a backing group for Peter, Paul and Mary. Very few my age doing a PhD.
Oh yes, there’s the whole TS/IS thing too, but that’s incidental. It’s good in that it gives me an insight others may lack into the situation, but otherwise it’s all a bit “So what?” Yes, I’m IS, yes I’m a cancer survivor, yes I’m a naturalised immigrant. And?
Oh, and Anonymous T-Girl : You may not have a long track history, but you earned my respect very early on. FWIW. Others feel the same way.
07/22/2009 at 6:54 AM
Among the criticisms tossed at TS-Si: (1) we are hateful and venomous toward transgenders, and (2) we are now transgenders and TS-Si.org is now a transgender site.
In the first case, we get comments saying we are “hateful and venomous” from people who quite plainly did not read the text in front of them. In other words, they arrive with preconceptions and seek validation for what they already believe.
In the second case, as just one example, there is some fool who seems to have made it his mission to leave comments on blogs that we have repositioned as a transgender site. Among other things, he cites as proof our publication of work by Suzanne Cooke and others. Some also object to our inclusion of intersex folks. I have even had correspondence with some folks who demanded that I remove the work of Suzie, Lisa Thompson, and others because they took offense at the content.
Not a chance of that! We protect the integrity of our authors. The extent of our agreement with the content is not at issue.
Our most recent dust up is over the new series of articles by “Evangelina Carters” on “The Transgender Cargo Cult” (2 out of 3 columns so far). The Twitterverse is all abuzz, there have been threats, and attempts to flood our site. Tough luck for them, poor babies.
In the end, the childish people who trash the neighborhood count for little. We get heavy traffic and our correspondence runs heavily in favor of some basic concepts:
(1) there is a fundamental difference between people born transsexual and transgenders;
(2) all people deserve respect and equal rights (even though we can disagree on how to work that out in practice);
(3) sexual orientation per se is not at issue when discussing transsexualism; and
(4) the state of scientific literacy is at low ebb in this country.
I would expand the latter point to literacy in general.
Sharon
http://www.ts-si.org
http://twitter.com/tssinews
07/22/2009 at 10:40 AM
Zoe, you are special because of what you’ve done — not what you are. That is exactly what makes other women (or men) special.
The “special” I’m talking about is based on how so many are seen by others during transition. For some it’s a very heady time. for some the very first time they have gotten that much attention (both positive and negative).
When you’ve never had that before it can be hard to let go of.
Being a woman means being “special” the way every other woman is — by what we do, by what we give back to the world. It’s not based on being “trans”, it’s based on being a rocket scientist, piano player, writer, or just a great person.
07/22/2009 at 5:01 PM
Sharon
The two main people behind much of the noise are Jennifer Suzanne and Sue Ann Robins. Neither are permitted to post here.
I honestly do not hate transgender people and I am not a transsexual supremacist.
What has caused me to defend TGs lately is my disgust over bullying and abuse directed towards others who are an oppressed minority in their own right.
Were some one to come here and trash Latina/o people or Blacks they would find themselves barred from posting just as quickly.
Further screaming the same slogans as vicious right wing Christo-fascists does not make one normborn, just a self hating Sonder-commando.
To them I just have to say, “Get a life.” Trashing TGs ranks right down there with torturing small animals and pulling the wings off butterflies in my list of things people can be proud of.
07/22/2009 at 6:09 PM
Suzie,
Despite the adverse comments, my (and Lisa’s) objections are aimed at the excesses of TG activists, not the rank and file. We have said time and again, we wish everyone well. More than that, we work the streets and don’t see much support from the loudest mouths.
As for the “charge” that we are TG because we acknowledge the humanity and needs of non-TS folk, the critics can take a flying leap.
Sharon
07/22/2009 at 7:18 PM
I find this entire dust-up very interesting.
When we came up with WBT (Women Born Transsexual), we were the first to form a group based on opposition to the umbrella concept. We were among the first to strongly oppose the attempt by TG activists to co-opt / colonize / take over the lives of Transsexuals and post-op Women Born Transsexual.
We were attacked as “elitist”, “separatist”, etc. Folks said we were anti-TG, were espousing TS superiority, etc., etc., etc.
Our WBT list grew rather quickly. Others began similar groups, and the meme WBT found its way around the world.
Some folks took it a bit further than we did — but, that’s to be expected when something comes along that fills a previously unspoken need.
All the while, we said, over and over, that we were not anti-TG — we just wanted them to stop trying to piggyback on our lives, to stop using us – without our permission – to further their agenda. After all, it all began when we were told that “TG and TS” was not acceptable.
It was very much like a group of men telling some “silly women” whats what. I even sent very mild posts to groups stating that we were pro civil rights for all. That we were pro TG rights — we just wanted our views, our lives to be respected. Those posts were never allowed to see the light of day. We were not allowed to post our ideas / opinions on pro-TG sites.
In fact Suzy is still banned from commenting on “Pam’s House Blend” by Autumn Sandeen — why, I do not know — except for the fact Suzy has her own opinions.
We were also attacked for not being stern enough. For not being anti-TG enough.
Then there were those who demanded we support their heterosexual marriages, while they did not support our possibility of marriage. When it was pointed out that expanded marraige rights would end all possibility of controversy — the response was, “We are NOT homosexual!”
It was also pointed out that two WBT’s together was somehow improper / unseemly / wrong / gross / etc. We were called losers who couldn’t find non-WBT partners. All this with no information about our past, or current situations.
We were decried as “homosexual” / “lesbian”, and NOT “true” WBT’s (or “true transsexuals”).
I still maintain WBT’s are NOT TG. At the same time, even though there has been minimal outreach from the TG community, we have to realize that ALL people deserve the protection of the law. All folks deserve basic civil rights. All people deserve the right to find a job, a place to live, health care, and other basics that cannot be, should not be, denied just because they are “different”.
When some of those who accuse us of being “TG in all but name” speak, they seem to use the very same words the Right-Wing-Christo-Facists do when attacking women, lesbians, gay men, bi-sexuals, and all the various T folk. Even those of us who are WBT have to stand up to those folks. We have to support other folks who are being attacked the very same way we would / will be.
In this age of information, where your history can be found by almost anyone, we are just as vulnerable.
You do not have to be TG, or TG identified to support human rights.
07/22/2009 at 9:05 PM
Tina: Amen to all that.
07/22/2009 at 10:29 PM
Jennifer Suzanne and Sue Ann Robins from the newsgroups? They have been around on-line forever!
As to Conway and James, besides any personal issues I may have with either, I do think the extremes of some of their tactics are counter productive.
Zoe,
Your situation is a bit different from most, as was your whirlwind transition… I am amazed that you find the time to get involved in all that you do.
Tina,
I have seen a vehement “pledge” of not disappearing broken more than few time over the years. I’ve also seen avowed non-ops change their minds after a few years then have SRS and disappear not long afterwards as well.
Where people are on the T political spectrum does tend to morph a good bit over time with life experience in ways they would never have expected.
These days I look at what people say through the lens of that knowledge.
- Karen
07/23/2009 at 2:39 PM
Well said Karen.
Other folks I find amusing are those who claimed, and still claim, “SRS is no big deal” — but — go on to say stuff like, “Even I am surprised at how much this, that, and the other thing have changed / been affected by my surgery.”.
There is always that BUT.
07/24/2009 at 7:02 AM
I am in the final stages of editing and completing my series on “Transgender Cargo Cult” the final part may contain some surprises it may not. It all depends on the point at which you start on this road.
I like and agree with a great many of the things I read in Suzan’s posts. A small minority fall outside of arguments I find acceptable. However, at the end of the day Suzy says what she thinks and honestly believes on this her blog and her space. I respect the fact your views Suzy are honestly held and held for good reason. I also respect the fact you have made and continue to make serious efforts to debate honestly to convert people to your point of view. I applaud you for all those things.
These principles apply similarly to TS Si who for some reason have seen fit to stick their neck out and publish my series. I am grateful. I have been around a great many years and seen and helped a great many people in that time, the vast majority before I came on line. This media, the internet, is a double edged sword it has given a voice to people who once did not have one. However support forums initially set up to support transsexual women, have been co-opted and taken over by transgender who have since silenced the voice of the woman born transsexual. The silenced women have simply taken the hint and got on with their lives. Basically saying “I don’t need this nonsense, I am getting on with my life” I’ve been barred too Suzy, when I don’t say what the men want me to say!
Not that it matters that much but I marched in an anti nuclear demonstrations many times from Aldermaston to Trafalgar square in sixties Britain. I attended socialist meetings held in secret and nameless Church Halls across England as well as university common rooms. I sang songs by Dylan, Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie, Paul Simon on concert stages, songs that were against the establishment. I voted for change at elections. My Father was a Trade Union steward, we are a working class family. However as a woman born transsexual I had no worse or better a time than some of my rich college friends who were disowned by their families because they were either socialists, Gay or themselves transsexual. I always say that being transsexual is the finest social leveller there is!
I don’t hate those who identify as TG. However because of my success post transition THEY hate me. They also hate me because I call them as I see them. Yet still I cannot bring myself to hate them. I can cease to post, to write or to mentor young transsexuals any time I choose to press my delete button on my computer screen. However that will leave the new and young women born transsexual to the tender mercy’s of the TG support forums.
I challenge anyone here to begin an on line support forum and I guarantee that within a month the membership will be made up of those demanding to include pre ops and non ops because “they deserve help too.” By the time six months has passed, The TG will have either voted you off the board or you will have become so pissed off by them you will walk away and leave them too their own devices!
Perhaps the time has arrived to ourselves give TG their marching orders and to stand up to their bully boy tactics. Or perhaps it’s best for me to do what the male to female TG will NEVER do. Go look after my husband and live my real life and leave the Tg to admire themselves in the mirror while they spank the donkey once more.
07/24/2009 at 7:46 AM
Are you certain “they” hate you? They as a collective noun covers a lot of people. Could “they” be a few jealous assholes and not an entire class of people?
Most of the hate mail and bad mouthing of this blog is coming from three people. All of whom claim to be post-SRS. But these people also tend to have bad reputations going back to the old days of Usenet some 14 years ago.
I’m also not confusing TG with TV. There is a difference there too.
Further some TGs I have known in the past have also had husbands even if some people want to describe their relationships as gay they were as heterogendered as any of the pre-SRS relationships I had with my boyfriend.
In the past you seem to have had some positive word for PFC and the bill they got passed that ended the no-marriage rule brought about in Ashley vs Corbett.
If I am not wrong TS and TG people worked together on that one.
07/24/2009 at 8:37 AM
There is a whole lot of time spent on the putative conflicts (TS/TG, TS/HBS, and various other combinations). However, I think a dedication to positive things takes us to a better place.
Like some others, I have been criicized, banned, or whatever by a variety of venues dominated by TGs. I was even cut off by a HBS group because I was not ideologically putr rnough (by their lights). For one thing, we have never embraced HBS as a fixed term; the underlying condition is what matters to us. As we have said before, once the science and medical practice reforms are in place, terminology – the least of it – will change. Whatever … the main thing is to get the job done.
Another point of contention has been our work with the homeless and/or sex workers. We have never refused giving help to anyone. The criticism has been we have spent time with transgenders and exhibted at Pride. And that comes from people who claim to care about the oppressed.
Having said all that, I still think placing people born transsexual under the TG umbrella has disastrous consequences. Quoting myself:
“Asserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive.
This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services.”
07/24/2009 at 8:57 AM
Well, it’s certainly more than just three people who have verbally attacked or rather bad mouthed me in the past. Not to mention spread lies about me and said things about me “they” (as in more than three) cannot possibly have known, even if true!
The bill fondly referred to as GERBIL was passed with the united support and effort of TG and women born transsexual. As a piece of legislation it has flaws, it is not a perfect bill by any means. However it is a lot better than that which exists in a few other countries; USA included I am sad to say. Only goes to show what can be achieved when we bury our differences for the common good.
What gets under my skin more than anything is the insistance from a great many TG that they can be women AND keep their penis. When I oppose that concept the fight starts.
I’m reluctant to get into a public discussion with you Suzy over pre-op and TG heteronormative relationships. I’d be happy to carry that one to private emails if you do want to have the discussion. My instinct is to draw the line at “intent” otherwise the relationship is a gay one. However, my mind is not closed on that issue. I’ve just not heard an argument that convinces me otherwise.
07/24/2009 at 9:12 AM
Oh and for the record I am with Sharon on this one! I was fortunate in that I was able to use my education to get work and as a result I had resources to fund my surgery. Not everyone is as lucky. Establishing medical cause for transsexuality is paramount. Transgender doctrine is not helpful.
PFC in UK have been key in campaigning to get essential surgery paid for by the public purse as it should be. PFC have their faults but on this issue I support them.
PFC have also been key in getting employment rights and I support them on those issues. UK already has it’s own version of ENDA I don’t agree with everything they campaign for though.
07/24/2009 at 9:18 AM
My experience over many years had been that venues for women born transsexual were inevitably invaded – and taken over – by men. I remember how even Suzie’s pre-WBT list had its share of trolls and invaders.
We started open publication in March 2006 and kept our focus despite a lot of complaints. Even then, dedicated venues were few. The online world has changed a lot since then, what with the rise of blogs. It is still hard, though; our site comes under regular attack (verbal and system).
The physical world is another matter. We keep hearing about local support groups that turn to the TG agenda preferences, the pre-ops are confused, and the post-ops flee. That has to change before any serious and coordinated TS/TG cooperation can occur.
07/24/2009 at 12:31 PM
I think a lot of support groups are more comfortable with a TG focus. Many are based in LGBT Centers where many Lesbians see ALL T folks (TG, TV, pre-op, post-op, etc.) as “transgender. They are not quite ready to accept post-ops as women.
Few, if any post-ops will march with any of the various “T” groups in Pride Parades. If they march at all, it’s with other affinity groups within the LGBT community.
I marched with a group promoting sobriety. Not AA, but one that supported grass roots organizing to provide education, alternatives, and harm reduction (we were funded by a Federal grant — wasn’t very effective, though the idea was good).
I was unable to attend any of the Gender Identity Project groups after SRS — all I wanted to do there was yell out, “WTF are you folks talking about?”.
Until folks at the various LGBT Centers “adjust” their attitudes toward, opinions of, WBT’s / post-ops, I do not think much headway will be made toward reducing the power TG’s have over these groups.
Of course, the demands of acceptance by some brand new post-ops, many of which are couched in rather male terms, do not help any of us in the fight for acceptance. One of the keys might be to REQUEST, rather than DEMAND.
07/24/2009 at 12:47 PM
I think another problem lies in the various identities FtM’s have.
There are “Bois”, “Boyz”, and many more that have come about after I left the LGBT groups. There are the FtM’s who claim a male identity yet remain in the Lesbian community. Some still teach their Women’s Studies classes, and remain tenured faculty members (perhaps it’s “gender studies” now).
It’s appears comvenient for those folks to embrace “transgender” — in addition, it seems easier to be a “gender outlaw”, or be in opposition to the “oppressive gender binary” when you have a secure job, in a welcoming (or, if not quite “welcoming”, then accepting) place.
I know I sound cynical, but I’ve met too many “gender freaks” who clean up after a night partying and go to their VERY “straight” jobs every day. A WBT does not usually have that liberty.
We (WBT’s) work at being accepted as women every day, as being seen as what we are. There is no glory or celebrity in being WBT. Even though some activists are “out”, most still have private lives as just “regular folks”, just women.
07/30/2009 at 1:28 AM
Evangelina, regarding PFC and the Gender Recognition Act you are talking complete crap.
Employment rights in the UK came about because a WBT took a ccourt case the whole way to the European Cout of Justice. That was absolutely nothing to do with PFC.
Due to it being a European court rulling (P V S), all the transsexual people in the Area covered by the European Court of Justice, got empoyment rights. That case covered people INTENDING TO, UNDERGOING or who have COMPELTED sex reassignment surgery. She was not a member of PFC at the time, contrary to anything you may have been told.
As for the Gender Recognition Act. Both women who took those court cases (Goodwin V UK and I V UK), were not members of PFC. One of the women went so far as to go on TV condemning the proposed new law. A lot of transsexual people complained about the law. I was moderating a number of lists at the time and had to restrain a lot of people’s language over it. There was a lot of genuine anger at PFC’s anti under 18 stance and preference for non-ops.
No member of PFC has sucessfully challenged any law in court to my knowledge. Stephen Whittle is a good example of court failures.
PFC hijacked the law change consultation process that had to legally occur after the Goodwin V UK and I V UK cases and changed it into a transgender law. All people who apply through the GRA are now put on an electronic register, which holds details in a similar manner to the sex offenders register, which the police can access. In the UK they may as well be wearing an electronic yellow star.
In PFC some of the activists on the ground level achieved a lot. Most have left PFC due to it being a dictatorship, complete control of all activites, constnat attacks by vice presidents on activists, betrayal and an extreme animal farm mentality.
07/30/2009 at 4:45 PM
I suppose everyone talks Crap but you Andrea? As it happens Christine Goodwin was a personal friend as was Kristina Sheffield, another of the cases instrumental in forcing the UK government to act. A few of the others were too.
As regards PFC for the record and since I see them as transgender biased as an organisation I have little time for their antics or policy. If I’d agreed with their policies I would have joined but I didn’t and never would.
There were far worse transgender organisations than PFC working with government departments at that time.
As I said before, GERBIL is less than perfect but at least it provides some benefits denied elsewhere.
I am not your enemy Andrea.
07/31/2009 at 2:03 AM
Cassandra, my comments were not aimed at you. They were aimed at Evangelina as I stated at the start of my message, for talking nonsense.
From what you say, we actually agree on the issues.
Regarding the Gerbil. Some weird stuff has been popping up about that, which we did not know about when it became law. It appears it may have removed some rights from a few intersex groups, such as Klinefelters and 5 alpha reductase. How that has come about is beyond my comprehension.
It appears a lot more went on behind closed doors than anyone realises.
07/31/2009 at 4:55 AM
Andrea, CASSANDRASPEAKS is my website, I happened to be logged in when I replied to you.
Perhaps I should clarify my position regarding GERBIL and PFC. when I made the posting you are complaining about. Suzan was asking for some co-operation with transgender groups for various issues and suggested that the involvement of PFC was a positive thing. I believe it probably was; however there can be no doubt that there were some aspects of GERBIL that ended up as biased in favour of TG. Personally I would have said no surgery no birth certificate change. I wrote to PFC on many occasions asking for that rule. It didn’t happen.
The anomoly that is Kleinfelters within GERBIL is one of those areas where the legislation was rushed and fails. Until gerbil, changes to birth certificates were routinely allowed for situations such as Kleinfelters. Unfortunately the bill affected that process. Those who have Kleinfelters are supposed to conform to legislation desigend for Transgender in essence, not even transsexual in my view.
I have a copy of Gerbil as passed if you would like it email me.
As I understand the workings of the Gender Recognition Certificate, when one is granted the registrar general is notified that one has been issued and they write requesting in formation which you provide and return. A new Birth Certificate is then issued. The record of that process is held and is available to police ONLY if they can provide evidence that a crime has been committed by that person and their change of certificate is a factor in investigating the crime. They cannot look at the register just because they ” feel like it”. They must provide good reason, again this is contained in the bill.
The most dangerous piece of UK legislation in my view is the introduction of identity cards. That is worse even than GERBIL as it affects us.
07/31/2009 at 5:09 AM
Unfortunately it is physically impossible for those who are Intersexed to conform to the requirements of the GRC.
The ICD-10 is used to define Transsexuality:
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality
Anyone who has a chromosomal abnormality cannot be considered Gender Dysphoric by the GRC. And as the existing caselaw on Intersex has been overturned by the GERBIL, there is no avenue open for those with Intersex that is, or may be, of genetic etiology.
It *is* possible for Intersexed people to obtain an amended (not new) Birth Certificate. But it requires that two attending physicians at the birth attest to the fact that the appearance at birth does not match that recorded on the Birth Certificate.
With permission of both parents, a new BC can be issued, rather than an amended one.
If born at home (as I was) with no attending physician, or with ambiguous genitalia that is not contrary to either sex, tough. There are also few physicians who attended births in the 1950′s still alive.
It is no exaggeration to say that the GERBIL has been a complete disaster for Intersexed people in the UK.